ONCOLOGY DIVISION RUINED

[Anonymous]

Rich Micali has completely ruined the once premier divisioin of BMS. Expansions are ridiculous. Access is difficult as it is, especially with Imclone having so much freedom, now he wants to have as many as 4 reps in some territories competing for doctor time. Where has the quality call gone? we are nothing but robots who will cater lunches. What I really can't figure out is why does he believe reps with no prior oncology experience, much less no prior specialty experience deserve the better positions ie: sprycel reps who will be calling on KOL's. no existing reps is allowed to interview for this position. District Managers where are you? you are supposed to be our sounding voice and stand up for principal - what has happened to you? this division has completely lost it's passion for oncology patients and the desire to be better than the rest.

[Anonymous]

I can understand your frustration. I watched as CMRS was destroyed by the expansion five years ago. What was once viewed as a "prestegious" position requiring great product knowledge and tremendous relationships with KOL's and key high volume physicians was turned into the multiple rep, little product knowledge, physician access loosing jaugernaut before you today.

My only question is your contempt for representatives with no experience. How did you get your experience in Oncology? Were you born with it, or did you work your ass off to get it. While I am not applying for an oncology position myself (personal reasons...two little kids in school and spouse with MS), I do know that there are still a few representatives out there who are willing to educate themselves on a daily basis, work hard at developing KOL relationships through time and disease state knowledge (not T&A and Bar Room ass kissing). The more of the Oncology representatives I meet, the more convinced at how pompus most of you have become. Remember where you came from. I get it, more share of voice is not the answer, but grouping everyone who is not already an Oncology Specialty Representative as being inferior is just stupid. You need to get over yourself a little.

[Anonymous]

Rich Micali has completely ruined the once premier divisioin of BMS. Expansions are ridiculous. Access is difficult as it is, especially with Imclone having so much freedom, now he wants to have as many as 4 reps in some territories competing for doctor time. Where has the quality call gone? we are nothing but robots who will cater lunches. What I really can't figure out is why does he believe reps with no prior oncology experience, much less no prior specialty experience deserve the better positions ie: sprycel reps who will be calling on KOL's. no existing reps is allowed to interview for this position. District Managers where are you? you are supposed to be our sounding voice and stand up for principal - what has happened to you? this division has completely lost it's passion for oncology patients and the desire to be better than the rest.

Boo hoo, our heart bleeds for you, you. From all I have ever read on this bb about onc & vir reps - you are SO special you can walk on water. Too bad you can't handle this little problem.

[Anonymous]

I understand your position now. You want the company to take representatives that have experience off of products that are under achieving by company and industry standards and let them have first crack at the new medications because they "owe it to you". Honestly, does that make sense?

That would be like taking the CRS representatives off of Plavix ($5 Billion globaly in 2007) and letting them sell......wait, they don't have anything new to sell......whatever else they wanted because the bonus structure is not set yet, and they have a better chance at being successfull with the new drug. It is not a sound business decision. I think you are mad because you will not get a chance at a better bonus. It is not the company's fault that you have not achieved the anticipated success with Erbutux. Why would they move you to something new and then hire in someone new to sell your under performing product? If you are the "Great and All Powerfull Oz" you have made yourselves out to be in oncology, you can not think the scenerio you are asking for makes good business sense.

Now, go ahead and tell me how I do not understand the Oncology culture and how it is sooooo much more of a complex selling situation than everyone else. SALES are SALES. You can or you can't. I think I know which one you are in.

First, Erbitux has exceeded budget every year since it launched. Most people in Oncology have been here for many years. We truly make every attempt to live our mission. What's painful is our leadership. They do not have the same enthusiasm we do regarding our products, culture, the patient, or our position in the marketplace. However, PC reps. that came over to oncology have been some of the best reps. we've ever had! In fact, all of us were in PC at one time or another. Our concern is the leadership. They are so hell bent on modeling our sales call, metrics, culture, etc. after PC. That's what pisses us off! The Oncology culture is different, not better, just different.

Furthermore, oncology representatives have absolutely no developmental opportunities to move up to DM level. Even our L&D team and FDM's don't have the ability to move into a DM position. Whether you move to plainsboro, go through MCP, win Best Performers three years in a row, nothing! I think that's wrong! Everyone wants to be in oncology but what about those of us that are already here? Where's our opportunity? Oncology leadership use to take care of their own. Now it appears that every division but oncology takes care of their own! Were not special, at this point we would be satified by being treated like the other divisions.


Perhaps you may view this as complaining but to some of us it just hurts to be treated this way...

[Anonymous]

First, Erbitux has exceeded budget every year since it launched. Most people in Oncology have been here for many years. We truly make every attempt to live our mission. What's painful is our leadership. They do not have the same enthusiasm we do regarding our products, culture, the patient, or our position in the marketplace. However, PC reps. that came over to oncology have been some of the best reps. we've ever had! In fact, all of us were in PC at one time or another. Our concern is the leadership. They are so hell bent on modeling our sales call, metrics, culture, etc. after PC. That's what pisses us off! The Oncology culture is different, not better, just different.

Furthermore, oncology representatives have absolutely no developmental opportunities to move up to DM level. Even our L&D team and FDM's don't have the ability to move into a DM position. Whether you move to plainsboro, go through MCP, win Best Performers three years in a row, nothing! I think that's wrong! Everyone wants to be in oncology but what about those of us that are already here? Where's our opportunity? Oncology leadership use to take care of their own. Now it appears that every division but oncology takes care of their own! Were not special, at this point we would be satified by being treated like the other divisions.


Perhaps you may view this as complaining but to some of us it just hurts to be treated this way...


Just to help educate you a little, this is from Tuesdays financial pages:

Shares of ImClone Systems (IMCL - news - Cramer's Take - Rating) dropped Monday after analysts noticed that U.S. sales of the company's colon cancer drug Erbitux were lower in July.

The dip in U.S. sales to $25.4 million in July vs. $30.1 million in June "is a cause of concern, but not for alarm," said Corey Kasimov of Oppenheimer in a brief note to clients Monday. The sales are tracked by IMS Health.
Kasimov said the results support the belief of some on Wall Street that Erbitux's strong sales start was due to a "significant backlog of patient demand." But Kasimov is still sticking with a 12-month price target of $98. (He doesn't own shares; his firm is a market maker in ImClone's stock.)

Another analyst troubled by the sales figures is David Witzke of SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, who told clients in a Monday research report that some ImClone watchers have probably overestimated Erbitux's sales.

"With some analysts expecting third-quarter U.S. Erbitux sales in the $85-million-to-$95-million range compared to second-quarter sales of $71 million, we remain concerned that investors will be disappointed if results fall far short of these lofty expectations," Witzke said.

He predicts third-quarter U.S. sales will reach $76 million and that full-year U.S. sales will hit $243 million. He has a neutral rating on the stock and a 12-month price target of $66. (He doesn't own shares; his firm is also a market maker in ImClone's stock.)


You know as well as I do that the company adjusted the goals at the end of last year to make sure it appeared that BMS hit the mark. Don't argue about it, I have a feeling we have both been around about the same amount of time, and we both know how this works.

Erbitux has not met the demands of Wall Street.

As far as the career advancement situation, you will need to show me in the employee handbook where it says that oncology representatives are not allowed to advance. I do not think I have seen that section. Sounds like you need to talk with a lawyer.

Look, I do not want to discredit you or anyone in oncology. All of you deal with a very difficult situation reguarding patient life expectancy. Your job is not easy. But none of our jobs are now. Try selling a product with 7 competitors within its class, five other classes of agents that deliver the same result, multiple generics within each of those classes, and limited managed care coverage as well. Welcome to hypertension 101.

Or better yet, try selling a drug believed to be over priced, chincy on samples, discredited in primary prevention, and hated by Surgins. Welcome to Plavix 101.

Oncologists will try any and everything they can to give the patient a few extra days/weeks/months on to the end of their lives, most times reguardless of indications. We do not have that happening in the FP/IM/CD market.


From FP/IM to CRS to Oncology, we are all trying to hold on to an industry that is imploding. Information that we used to bring is now on the Web, samples can be direct shipped to avoid issues, and the U.S. Government now runs retirement health care. We are our own worst enemy.

As I said earlier, sales are sales. Those who can sell will survive, those who can't will clean my pool. Stop trying to protect your 30 hour per week, limited access, overpaid job by claiming that management is to blame and that no one in the other divisions can do what you do after a few weeks of home study. Take controll over your own destiny, or come clean my pool.

[Anonymous]

First, Erbitux has exceeded budget every year since it launched. Most people in Oncology have been here for many years. We truly make every attempt to live our mission. What's painful is our leadership. They do not have the same enthusiasm we do regarding our products, culture, the patient, or our position in the marketplace. However, PC reps. that came over to oncology have been some of the best reps. we've ever had! In fact, all of us were in PC at one time or another. Our concern is the leadership. They are so hell bent on modeling our sales call, metrics, culture, etc. after PC. That's what pisses us off! The Oncology culture is different, not better, just different.

Furthermore, oncology representatives have absolutely no developmental opportunities to move up to DM level. Even our L&D team and FDM's don't have the ability to move into a DM position. Whether you move to plainsboro, go through MCP, win Best Performers three years in a row, nothing! I think that's wrong! Everyone wants to be in oncology but what about those of us that are already here? Where's our opportunity? Oncology leadership use to take care of their own. Now it appears that every division but oncology takes care of their own! Were not special, at this point we would be satified by being treated like the other divisions.


Perhaps you may view this as complaining but to some of us it just hurts to be treated this way...

Your problems are no different from every other division in BMS. The leadership of this company is totally PCP focused, they want to measure every thing you do each day. No trust, little respect. You should hear how the Plainsboro admin and marketing folks talk about the field. They act like field people are totally, stupid morons that need to be spoonfed, not trusted and monitored every minute. This is the BMS culture, if you don't like it, best to move on becasue it aint changing for the next 20 years.

[Anonymous]

Just to help educate you a little, this is from Tuesdays financial pages:

Shares of ImClone Systems (IMCL - news - Cramer's Take - Rating) dropped Monday after analysts noticed that U.S. sales of the company's colon cancer drug Erbitux were lower in July.

The dip in U.S. sales to $25.4 million in July vs. $30.1 million in June "is a cause of concern, but not for alarm," said Corey Kasimov of Oppenheimer in a brief note to clients Monday. The sales are tracked by IMS Health.
Kasimov said the results support the belief of some on Wall Street that Erbitux's strong sales start was due to a "significant backlog of patient demand." But Kasimov is still sticking with a 12-month price target of $98. (He doesn't own shares; his firm is a market maker in ImClone's stock.)

Another analyst troubled by the sales figures is David Witzke of SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, who told clients in a Monday research report that some ImClone watchers have probably overestimated Erbitux's sales.

"With some analysts expecting third-quarter U.S. Erbitux sales in the $85-million-to-$95-million range compared to second-quarter sales of $71 million, we remain concerned that investors will be disappointed if results fall far short of these lofty expectations," Witzke said.

He predicts third-quarter U.S. sales will reach $76 million and that full-year U.S. sales will hit $243 million. He has a neutral rating on the stock and a 12-month price target of $66. (He doesn't own shares; his firm is also a market maker in ImClone's stock.)




I think you cherry picked that quote a bit. Try this one:

ImClone's fortunes have been looking far more rosy since the end of March, when Amgen Inc. (Nasdaq:AMGN - news), maker of a rival drug called Vectibix, stopped a clinical trial of its drug for safety reasons, giving additional breathing room to Erbitux, which is ImClone's only product.

"I think ImClone is getting a free pass this quarter given all the recent data generated by Erbitux and Vectibix," said Cory Kasimov, an analyst at Oppenheimer & Co. "People are now focused more on its growth prospects."

[Anonymous]

I think you cherry picked that quote a bit. Try this one:

ImClone's fortunes have been looking far more rosy since the end of March, when Amgen Inc. (Nasdaq:AMGN - news), maker of a rival drug called Vectibix, stopped a clinical trial of its drug for safety reasons, giving additional breathing room to Erbitux, which is ImClone's only product.

"I think ImClone is getting a free pass this quarter given all the recent data generated by Erbitux and Vectibix," said Cory Kasimov, an analyst at Oppenheimer & Co. "People are now focused more on its growth prospects."

For us in sales, I can only say that Erbitux has exceeded our sales goal for BMS every year since launch. Can't really comment on what the street expects from erbitux

[Anonymous]

I think you cherry picked that quote a bit. Try this one:

ImClone's fortunes have been looking far more rosy since the end of March, when Amgen Inc. (Nasdaq:AMGN - news), maker of a rival drug called Vectibix, stopped a clinical trial of its drug for safety reasons, giving additional breathing room to Erbitux, which is ImClone's only product.

"I think ImClone is getting a free pass this quarter given all the recent data generated by Erbitux and Vectibix," said Cory Kasimov, an analyst at Oppenheimer & Co. "People are now focused more on its growth prospects."

Now it's cherry picking. Whatever. You can not have it both ways. Wall Street rules all of our organizations now. What they say goes. Your precious division did not make them happy and now you want the new product. I don't think so. Do a better job with what you have.

[Anonymous]

Now it's cherry picking. Whatever. You can not have it both ways. Wall Street rules all of our organizations now. What they say goes. Your precious division did not make them happy and now you want the new product. I don't think so. Do a better job with what you have.

If you truly work at BMS, then you know our leadership doesn't lower SGA so reps. can make more bonus, etc. BMSO has exceeded expectations on Erbitux from a sales perspective. I could go into more detail regarding metrics, SGA, MMA, reimbursement, etc. but something tells me I would lose you in the dialogue.

Best of luck on Plaviz/Averpa/Avilade or whatever the hell it is you people sample...

p.s. Word has it that SA are the one's who drive sales for CV/Met, not our teenie bopper, justin timberlake lovin salesforce!

[Anonymous]

If you truly work at BMS, then you know our leadership doesn't lower SGA so reps. can make more bonus, etc. BMSO has exceeded expectations on Erbitux from a sales perspective. I could go into more detail regarding metrics, SGA, MMA, reimbursement, etc. but something tells me I would lose you in the dialogue.

Best of luck on Plaviz/Averpa/Avilade or whatever the hell it is you people sample...

p.s. Word has it that SA are the one's who drive sales for CV/Met, not our teenie bopper, justin timberlake lovin salesforce!

Boy you oncology reps know all those big words and acronyms, impressive. I think that Plaviz pays your salary too. Get a life, sales is sales - onc is no different, no matter how hard you try to make everyone believe it is.

[Anonymous]

If you truly work at BMS, then you know our leadership doesn't lower SGA so reps. can make more bonus, etc. BMSO has exceeded expectations on Erbitux from a sales perspective. I could go into more detail regarding metrics, SGA, MMA, reimbursement, etc. but something tells me I would lose you in the dialogue.

Best of luck on Plaviz/Averpa/Avilade or whatever the hell it is you people sample...

p.s. Word has it that SA are the one's who drive sales for CV/Met, not our teenie bopper, justin timberlake lovin salesforce!

Now we are down to name calling. Classic.

Our leadership has always lowered FSGA (Forcasted Sales Goal Attainment for those of you who our Oncology Professional does not feel should be here). November 1999 Pravachol lowered at national level to show better attainment, December 2000 Pravachol and Serzone lowered, November 2001 Pravachol, December 2002 Pravachol, Tequin, and Taxol....Are you beginning to see a pattern here, or am I moving too fast for you?

By the way, nice job destroying the reputation of your CV/Metabolic counterparts by claiming SA superiority. I swear, every one of you Onc representastives should be forced to pick up a cv/met bag for 90 days and we will see who can "sell". I will give three to one odds you would be gone in 30.

Once again, get over yourself.

[Anonymous]

it's the CV reps that need to get over themselves. Plavix sells itself-its on the AHA guidelines to support care of ACS. (Acute coronary syndrome). There is no need for 6 reps from SA or BMS to be bumping into each other sampling "2" boxes at a time so everyone can get a signature. This tactic alone is why access has become so limited for reps in all offices. And, don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about, as I too once sold Plavix for this company!

[Anonymous]

2/3 of the Oncology sales force came from PC. All of us respect PC, but when you come on this board dogging our bread and butter product, Erbitux, your bound to piss some people off.

As for Oncology vs. PC, correct me if i'm wrong but I believe it's the PC rep. that's trying to get into oncology. I never heard of a oncology rep. trying to get back into PC?

For financial reasons alone that would not make any sense?

[Anonymous]

2/3 of the Oncology sales force came from PC. All of us respect PC, but when you come on this board dogging our bread and butter product, Erbitux, your bound to piss some people off.

As for Oncology vs. PC, correct me if i'm wrong but I believe it's the PC rep. that's trying to get into oncology. I never heard of a oncology rep. trying to get back into PC?

For financial reasons alone that would not make any sense?

Don't worry about it! There's always going to be PC reps. saying "Damn, sales is sales, my glass is half full, i'm ok you're ok! Were all one family, etc...

This is just how the PC rep. get's throught their day. Sampling, timing sample drops, signature checks, micro managing. Been there, done that! No thanks, not for me... I put my 5 years in!!!!

[Anonymous]

[QUOTE=Anonymous;1645008]I can understand your frustration. I watched as CMRS was destroyed by the expansion five years ago. What was once viewed as a "prestegious" position requiring great product knowledge and tremendous relationships with KOL's and key high volume physicians was turned into the multiple rep, little product knowledge, physician access loosing jaugernaut before you today.

When was CMRS a "prestigious" position? It's a PC job and always has been

[Anonymous]

2/3 of the Oncology sales force came from PC. All of us respect PC, but when you come on this board dogging our bread and butter product, Erbitux, your bound to piss some people off.

As for Oncology vs. PC, correct me if i'm wrong but I believe it's the PC rep. that's trying to get into oncology. I never heard of a oncology rep. trying to get back into PC?

For financial reasons alone that would not make any sense?

For the record, I did not come on the board dogging your precious Erbitux. You started out saying that the Oncology expansion was going to ruin the division. I pointed out your flawed thought process, and then you got mad. Several other posters in between have turned the direction into something else. You were mad because you were and are not going to get the chance at the new product. TOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

wow, after reading though all the postings on this topic I noticed a couple of things. 1. the fact that leadership is detrimental to the oncology division is a fact. they are focused purely on # of calls, not the quality of calls and not the quality that once existed within this division. 2. those of you who participated on this topic who are not in oncology should keep your comments to yourself. Unless you are actively in oncology your opinion is irrevelent. 3. to the person who said everyone wants to be in oncology, everyone views oncology as a step up and yet points out that those existing in oncology are punished - you hit the jackpot. you are correct. never once have I spoken with an oncology rep who was promoted to oncology and wanted to return. emphasis on the word promoted. 4. 2/3 of the oncology sales force are not from PC, there are dozens of us who have been here long enough to say PC is a distant past and have transitioned to the oncology culture so long ago that their remnants of any pc background was once regarded as specialty and pristine. unfortunately the industry has done that to itself and downgraded the current pc culture.

[Anonymous]

very well said. Oncology, no matter what pharma company, is always considered the top rung of the sales divisions. There is a reason you are promoted into oncology, and once you are there you would be insane to go back to being a primary care rep.

[Anonymous]

I would rather be on the ImClone side of things selling Erbitux. Company is poised to do some good things.

[Anonymous]

wow, after reading though all the postings on this topic I noticed a couple of things. 1. the fact that leadership is detrimental to the oncology division is a fact. they are focused purely on # of calls, not the quality of calls and not the quality that once existed within this division. 2. those of you who participated on this topic who are not in oncology should keep your comments to yourself. Unless you are actively in oncology your opinion is irrevelent. 3. to the person who said everyone wants to be in oncology, everyone views oncology as a step up and yet points out that those existing in oncology are punished - you hit the jackpot. you are correct. never once have I spoken with an oncology rep who was promoted to oncology and wanted to return. emphasis on the word promoted. 4. 2/3 of the oncology sales force are not from PC, there are dozens of us who have been here long enough to say PC is a distant past and have transitioned to the oncology culture so long ago that their remnants of any pc background was once regarded as specialty and pristine. unfortunately the industry has done that to itself and downgraded the current pc culture.


Now it's my turn to say Wow!! The idea resonating through all these postings is that (I will be redundant here) all Oncology Reps were born into it and never had to start at the PC or CV level.

I interviewed for one of the positions that was open. In my area, the existing Oncology Reps WERE indeed asked if they wanted to take the new drug to launch. They were given the first opportunity to sell Ixempra. Guess what? They did not want it. Also, I can tell you straight up that the Oncology Managers that interviewed in our area were so impressed with the quality of the internal Reps that they have offered to some of them to relocate. I think they were really surprised to find such an impressive array of candidates.

You have to look at it from different sides. A lot depends on the location. If you are in the saturated markets of the NorthEast, the calliber of reps you will get is much much lower than the quality you will see in sparser areas. The reps in areas such as Northeast have so many opportunities that they hop around from job to job, company to company, getting more cash and not really gaining a well rounded depth of knowledge.

In more sparsely populated areas, Reps don't have many opportunities to move around. So, when an "expansion" happens, EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER jump on it, you bet!!!

In any case, if the existing Oncology Reps don't get the opportunities, it is discouraging for them. I aknowledge that. I believe, it all comes down to your immediate manager - bottom line.

I hope it all works out. In the end, the expansion is happening and there ain't notin' that anyone can do about it. 100 new reps is not so bad, I just hope that most of them are internal.

[Anonymous]

Now it's my turn to say Wow!! The idea resonating through all these postings is that (I will be redundant here) all Oncology Reps were born into it and never had to start at the PC or CV level.

I interviewed for one of the positions that was open. In my area, the existing Oncology Reps WERE indeed asked if they wanted to take the new drug to launch. They were given the first opportunity to sell Ixempra. Guess what? They did not want it. Also, I can tell you straight up that the Oncology Managers that interviewed in our area were so impressed with the quality of the internal Reps that they have offered to some of them to relocate. I think they were really surprised to find such an impressive array of candidates.

You have to look at it from different sides. A lot depends on the location. If you are in the saturated markets of the NorthEast, the calliber of reps you will get is much much lower than the quality you will see in sparser areas. The reps in areas such as Northeast have so many opportunities that they hop around from job to job, company to company, getting more cash and not really gaining a well rounded depth of knowledge.

In more sparsely populated areas, Reps don't have many opportunities to move around. So, when an "expansion" happens, EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER jump on it, you bet!!!

In any case, if the existing Oncology Reps don't get the opportunities, it is discouraging for them. I aknowledge that. I believe, it all comes down to your immediate manager - bottom line.

I hope it all works out. In the end, the expansion is happening and there ain't notin' that anyone can do about it. 100 new reps is not so bad, I just hope that most of them are internal.

Right on! Besides, external people who have worked for biotech companies won't be able to work for BMS. Ask the Orencia sales force. It's too restrictive and frustrating for them. Better to give it to an internal who can aclimate.

[Anonymous]

Rich Micali has completely ruined the once premier divisioin of BMS. Expansions are ridiculous. Access is difficult as it is, especially with Imclone having so much freedom, now he wants to have as many as 4 reps in some territories competing for doctor time. Where has the quality call gone? we are nothing but robots who will cater lunches. What I really can't figure out is why does he believe reps with no prior oncology experience, much less no prior specialty experience deserve the better positions ie: sprycel reps who will be calling on KOL's. no existing reps is allowed to interview for this position. District Managers where are you? you are supposed to be our sounding voice and stand up for principal - what has happened to you? this division has completely lost it's passion for oncology patients and the desire to be better than the rest.

SO true RM wants numbers and not quality. The more you give the more he wants!