Uncomfortable

[Anonymous]

Is anyone else a little uncomfortable with the amount of documentation that Avanir has requested of its candidates? I understand the expectation of documenting previous performance. Who doesn't want the best possible applicants? I have a great brag book and can't wait to show it. What makes me uncomfortable is handing over documents such as sales reports and field contact reports for them to retain. I contacted a former DM to see about getting more supporting documentation of performance and explained what has been requested and why and he was horrified. He said that in his experience it is highly improper to give proprietary information away to a potential employer. He also said that our company and many others have been given the direction not to directly solicit any documentation that may contain anything considered proprietary. They are trained to ask only approved interview questions designed to draw answers highlighting performance and then if the candidate offers documentation of their achievements they are allowed to look at it and discuss it. Candidates that do reference proof of performance are looked at more favorably. No surprise there. He said that at no time would they ever ask for copies or for a candidate to leave this information with them. I can see their point especially for those of us who come from neuroscience background. I am sure our companies would be less than thrilled to know that a potential competitor has their sales data.

Don't get me wrong. I was impressed with the individuals I met and this has been a positive experience but this practice seems a little shady. I have been with the same company for a long time. Has this practice become common and am I (hopefully) overreacting?

[Anonymous]

I have a copy of my brag book which containes field ride reports, rankings, awards, ets. I always cary a copy in case a potential employer wants it. Perhaps I have been in the industry too long or have been on too many interviews, but I would rather be prepared and hand over a polished copy of whatever they need. You never know what a potential employer might ask for.

[Anonymous]

Is anyone else a little uncomfortable with the amount of documentation that Avanir has requested of its candidates? I understand the expectation of documenting previous performance. Who doesn't want the best possible applicants? I have a great brag book and can't wait to show it. What makes me uncomfortable is handing over documents such as sales reports and field contact reports for them to retain. I contacted a former DM to see about getting more supporting documentation of performance and explained what has been requested and why and he was horrified. He said that in his experience it is highly improper to give proprietary information away to a potential employer. He also said that our company and many others have been given the direction not to directly solicit any documentation that may contain anything considered proprietary. They are trained to ask only approved interview questions designed to draw answers highlighting performance and then if the candidate offers documentation of their achievements they are allowed to look at it and discuss it. Candidates that do reference proof of performance are looked at more favorably. No surprise there. He said that at no time would they ever ask for copies or for a candidate to leave this information with them. I can see their point especially for those of us who come from neuroscience background. I am sure our companies would be less than thrilled to know that a potential competitor has their sales data.

Don't get me wrong. I was impressed with the individuals I met and this has been a positive experience but this practice seems a little shady. I have been with the same company for a long time. Has this practice become common and am I (hopefully) overreacting?

Maybe your DM just doesn't want you to get the job.

[Anonymous]

Is anyone else a little uncomfortable with the amount of documentation that Avanir has requested of its candidates? I understand the expectation of documenting previous performance. Who doesn't want the best possible applicants? I have a great brag book and can't wait to show it. What makes me uncomfortable is handing over documents such as sales reports and field contact reports for them to retain. I contacted a former DM to see about getting more supporting documentation of performance and explained what has been requested and why and he was horrified. He said that in his experience it is highly improper to give proprietary information away to a potential employer. He also said that our company and many others have been given the direction not to directly solicit any documentation that may contain anything considered proprietary. They are trained to ask only approved interview questions designed to draw answers highlighting performance and then if the candidate offers documentation of their achievements they are allowed to look at it and discuss it. Candidates that do reference proof of performance are looked at more favorably. No surprise there. He said that at no time would they ever ask for copies or for a candidate to leave this information with them. I can see their point especially for those of us who come from neuroscience background. I am sure our companies would be less than thrilled to know that a potential competitor has their sales data.

Don't get me wrong. I was impressed with the individuals I met and this has been a positive experience but this practice seems a little shady. I have been with the same company for a long time. Has this practice become common and am I (hopefully) overreacting?

The information is an intrusion and proprietary. I am sure Avanir wouldn't want their information up and down the street if and when their employees start to interview away from the company. Giving W2 and pay stubs is also borderline unethical. But the problem is the companies are in the driver seat and can ask candidates to stand on their heads and they probably would.
I have had recruiters ask me when I graduated from High School in an attempt to find out how old I was. very pathetic.

[Anonymous]

Almost all of that information like year of high school graduation and what someone made on a given year is available as soon as a background check is done. Perhaps it is unclear what you are saying that they asked for. Could you list the specific items that you were asked to provide?

"such as 1. sales reports and 2. field contact reports for them to retain" Did they say directly that they want to retain these items or just see them?

It seems that this is all that they really asked for from you- ? I am not trying to make a point or anything, just trying to understand why you are upset. For me, the above two items are standard in a brag book and like the other poster said, I keep a copy of my brag book to give out in case it is requested.

[Anonymous]

So is them asking for our W2 legal? Or typical? I don't know but was surprised at the request as I've never been asked before. I suppose denying it to them would be the end of the process though.

[Anonymous]

Almost all of that information like year of high school graduation and what someone made on a given year is available as soon as a background check is done. Perhaps it is unclear what you are saying that they asked for. Could you list the specific items that you were asked to provide?

"such as 1. sales reports and 2. field contact reports for them to retain" Did they say directly that they want to retain these items or just see them?

It seems that this is all that they really asked for from you- ? I am not trying to make a point or anything, just trying to understand why you are upset. For me, the above two items are standard in a brag book and like the other poster said, I keep a copy of my brag book to give out in case it is requested.

OP here. Already interviewed and they requested to keep three years of FCRs and sales reports. I do have these things in my brag book and refer to them often. My concern is leaving them behind. I have been taught that sales reports and FCRs containing info about marketing, strategy, and messaging are considered company property. This may just be my company's position but it is considered improper for a manager to request copies of proprietary info at an interview and for an employee to give a potential employer comapny property for their retention.

I am not upset with them. I did have an excellent experience interviewing. I just wondered if anyone else comes from a company with this position on proprietary information and if I was overreacting.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Already interviewed and they requested to keep three years of FCRs and sales reports. I do have these things in my brag book and refer to them often. My concern is leaving them behind. I have been taught that sales reports and FCRs containing info about marketing, strategy, and messaging are considered company property. This may just be my company's position but it is considered improper for a manager to request copies of proprietary info at an interview and for an employee to give a potential employer comapny property for their retention.

I am not upset with them. I did have an excellent experience interviewing. I just wondered if anyone else comes from a company with this position on proprietary information and if I was overreacting.

My first reaction when I read this was that you are paranoid. I have been asked to provide all of these things in the past. I just accepted a position with a well known pharma and gave them my brag book. Seemed like a great idea to me so they can remember my greatness, right? I am doing my new hire paperwork and there is a section on proprietary information in the employee agreement form. Guess what? This stuff is proprietary! Anything that provides information about clients, accounts, sales info, policy or strategy is. I never even thought about this. Don't know what to tell you. If you don't give them what they want someone else like me probably will and you won't get the job. Color me surprised. I thought you were a big whiner and it looks like you might actually have a point.

[Anonymous]

My first reaction when I read this was that you are paranoid. I have been asked to provide all of these things in the past. I just accepted a position with a well known pharma and gave them my brag book. Seemed like a great idea to me so they can remember my greatness, right? I am doing my new hire paperwork and there is a section on proprietary information in the employee agreement form. Guess what? This stuff is proprietary! Anything that provides information about clients, accounts, sales info, policy or strategy is. I never even thought about this. Don't know what to tell you. If you don't give them what they want someone else like me probably will and you won't get the job. Color me surprised. I thought you were a big whiner and it looks like you might actually have a point.

I am interviewing and will be interested to see what they ask to see and keep.

[Anonymous]

Bottomline, those here who feel requests for documentation are standard, simply are focused on getting the job and not really differentiating the two very clear areas of differentiation.

A one page report which shows ranking, a certificate of accomplishment, award, a personal apprasial, these are standard items. All ok.

Any requests for W-2s, pay stubs, business plans etc and any in multiple years format requests, simply speaks to a style and belief that trust is not given or assumed. This style is a predictor of how teams will be managed, tracked and CHECKED. This style is arms length and controlling and will manifest in tight planning, PIPs and pressure which will create a work invironment which is work hard and work harder, so mangement can make lots of dollars for their bonus and stock plans.

Be very careful what you allow yourself to be involved in and committed to.

[Anonymous]

Here is the reasoning I think - if any company takes you at your "word" in terms of how much you're making in salary as opposed to actually reviewing your W-2, what do you think happens? What percentage of the applicants may fudge that number up a few thousand? I say a large majority would, and then the hiring company ends up paying more than market rate. And in this economy with the way our industry is going, unfortunately the company, not us the individuals, can dictate terms.

[Anonymous]

yuh - ok - just like if any doctor takes any sales rep "at their word" nobody would be writing anything and this industry couldn't survive!! What do you think "sales" is all about?!

[Anonymous]

Here is the reasoning I think - if any company takes you at your "word" in terms of how much you're making in salary as opposed to actually reviewing your W-2, what do you think happens? What percentage of the applicants may fudge that number up a few thousand? I say a large majority would, and then the hiring company ends up paying more than market rate. And in this economy with the way our industry is going, unfortunately the company, not us the individuals, can dictate terms.

Most companies have a system in place that determines a pay scale for reps based on experience. It is the fairest way. 10 years exp should pay the same for me as another rep with 10 yrs. Request of for W2 is for one reason- to lowball.

[Anonymous]

Bottomline, those here who feel requests for documentation are standard, simply are focused on getting the job and not really differentiating the two very clear areas of differentiation.

A one page report which shows ranking, a certificate of accomplishment, award, a personal apprasial, these are standard items. All ok.

Any requests for W-2s, pay stubs, business plans etc and any in multiple years format requests, simply speaks to a style and belief that trust is not given or assumed. This style is a predictor of how teams will be managed, tracked and CHECKED. This style is arms length and controlling and will manifest in tight planning, PIPs and pressure which will create a work invironment which is work hard and work harder, so mangement can make lots of dollars for their bonus and stock plans.

Be very careful what you allow yourself to be involved in and committed to.

I agree 100%. I am suspect of the type of culture this company is creating and no one has even started yet.

[Anonymous]

Ask them to show you their previous performance reviews.

[Anonymous]

ask them to show you their business plan

[Anonymous]

You have every right to be uncomfortable. This company does not even have an approved product yet. They won't know until Oct 18th if they have a product or not. And it is a total niche product for pseudobulbar effect, which is uncontrollable laughing and crying...not much of a patient base. The product is a combination of dextramethorphan (an anti-tussive found in every OTC cough medicine) and quinidine, an antiarrythmic....nothing new or innovative What is to stop a compounding pharmacy from formulating a decent imitation and selling it for less? They will probably price it too high and expect it to fly off the shelves. Unless you are desperate for a job, I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole

[Anonymous]

Well said, this group is in a bubble, and they are selling hard to convince top people to join them in a crusade. Don't buy the story, ask good questions about their plan for success, those who sat and sold themselves vs investigate the story will only have themselves to blame 12 months from now.

[Anonymous]

Well said, this group is in a bubble, and they are selling hard to convince top people to join them in a crusade. Don't buy the story, ask good questions about their plan for success, those who sat and sold themselves vs investigate the story will only have themselves to blame 12 months from now.

Well, for us who do not know all of the past details, what exactly is the story?

[Anonymous]

Well, for us who do not know all of the past details, what exactly is the story?

You don't need to know the story. All you need to do is look up dextramethorphan and quinidine. You will see that there is nothing new here. They are trying to spin Zenvia as innovative. Neurologists are highly clinical and will need a lot of proof before they will be willing to write this stuff.

[Anonymous]

Fampridine is nothing new and it has been repackaged as Ampyra.....How is Ampyra doing??

[Anonymous]

You don't need to know the story. All you need to do is look up dextramethorphan and quinidine. You will see that there is nothing new here. They are trying to spin Zenvia as innovative. Neurologists are highly clinical and will need a lot of proof before they will be willing to write this stuff.

Dextramethorphan is commonly found in OTC cough medicine. It is an antitussive and highly addicting. Quinidine is an anti-arrythmic that makes the dextramethorphan more bioavailable. What is to keep a smart pharmacist from compounding dextramethorphan and quinidine? Neurologists are going to poo poo this, especially if there is no ins. coverage. When are these small companies going to learn?

[Anonymous]

I am interviewing and will be interested to see what they ask to see and keep.

I have interviewed before and told them that I wouldn't hand over propreitary information and received a job offer. So maybe it isn't quite as necessary as they would have you believe. It may actually be a way to get info for marketing and the DM's are asked to try and retrieve it. I mean, do you actually think that the DM's plow through each and every brag book that they collect?

What do most companies do, especially those companies just going into a new market. Recruit reps that are in that market and ask them to hand over all their information on who they market to, volume in the marketplace, etc, etc.. It is shady and unethical at best and possibly illegal at worst.

[Anonymous]

If these people think that a combination of dextramethorphan and quinidine is going to get neurologists all excited, they are sorely mistaken. This is too much of a niche product and probably will have no coverage...company doesn't seem big enough to have national account managers. Unless you are desperate for a job, wouldn't touch this one.

[Anonymous]

I have researched this compound and am very impressed by it's potential. I talked to several of my neurologists before interviewing and they were very excited about the MOA of this drug. Seems interesting to me.

[Anonymous]

Interesting, yes...but will they write it?...and will patients, or more accurately their care-givers, be able to afford it if there is no coverage? Are their studies published in a reputable journal that Neurologists trust? Are they long term studies? These are questions that neurologists will ask. All questions to have answered before accepting a position with this company.

[Anonymous]

The request for business plans, call lists etc is a trick question aimed at testing your integrity and ethics. Are you a compliance risk or not???

[Anonymous]

The request for business plans, call lists etc is a trick question aimed at testing your integrity and ethics. Are you a compliance risk or not???

No. They really do want a copy of the past 3 years performance evals. Not a trick. That is all they asked to keep. I am cool with that. Not such much about the copy of my w2. I hate that. I don't even want my mother to know how much I make.

[Anonymous]

These people are imposters...they do not have their ducks in a row...they want performance evals and W2 forms...what about them? For chrissakes they don't even have an approved product yet! Everything is tentative. They want a sure thing with employees, but they are by far, NOT a sure thing.

[Anonymous]

There is one thing i would not give them, that is any information on what you can bring to the table. Like Best Times. Several years ago i was interviewing and showed what my team mates and i did to be #1. it was called, an Integrated Tactical Plan. The manager asked me if he could have a copy of it. I said, This is my only copy, but I'd be happy to share it with our team if you hired me.

Well, I didn't get a call back. But, in this case I did the right thing.

Also, by looking at the W2, the company can see what you made in Bonus ...which is important to see if you are a top performer.

[Anonymous]

There is one thing i would not give them, that is any information on what you can bring to the table. Like Best Times. Several years ago i was interviewing and showed what my team mates and i did to be #1. it was called, an Integrated Tactical Plan. The manager asked me if he could have a copy of it. I said, This is my only copy, but I'd be happy to share it with our team if you hired me.

Well, I didn't get a call back. But, in this case I did the right thing.

Also, by looking at the W2, the company can see what you made in Bonus ...which is important to see if you are a top performer.

Hope not about the bonus thing. I did well at my company in respect to ranking but no one was anywhere close to goal so my bonuses sucked. My bonus was that they didn't can me. So if they look at what my earnings were over my salary it doesn't look great. It would be a shame if they decided that I was not a top performer based on my W2 when I had all kinds of documentation on rankings in my brag book. In all honesty my performance has been progressively better over the time I have spent in pharma but it seems like I have earned less in bonus every year. The days of the big bonus are long gone. In 2002 I made $22,000 grand in one quarter. In 2009 I made that for the whole year but was in the top 20% of my company. This is not a reliable metric. Hope you are wrong.

[Anonymous]

There is one thing i would not give them, that is any information on what you can bring to the table. Like Best Times. Several years ago i was interviewing and showed what my team mates and i did to be #1. it was called, an Integrated Tactical Plan. The manager asked me if he could have a copy of it. I said, This is my only copy, but I'd be happy to share it with our team if you hired me.

Well, I didn't get a call back. But, in this case I did the right thing.

Also, by looking at the W2, the company can see what you made in Bonus ...which is important to see if you are a top performer.

Agree- they need to tell us why we should come to work for them...they have NO product yet, and neurologists will not be sold on the product until they can see long term studies. They have nothing to offer.

[Anonymous]

Read the analysts reports. This drug is predicted to be over $200M in a couple of years. Seems like the analysts think there is a market here. I wish I could interview and sell something besides the 9th PPI.

[Anonymous]

and anyone who knows anything about the stock market, does NOT listen to what the "analysts predict" on message boards!!

[Anonymous]

Previous poster used the word imposters, look at who is in the core hiring team, this group came from Amylin. Amyliin has been on a 3 year down trend and going no where. The sales VP ran sales and managed care, that is not a good track record.

[Anonymous]

I believe asking for a W2 is invasive-especially when they won't answer questions as to why the drug keeps being rejected by the FDA. I feel if you create an environment of full disclosure-it has to apply to both sides. They should be prepared to answer questions on the QT prolongation which is typically a Black Box warning IF approved. Right now, investors are betting AGAINST Avanir-Bloomberg issued a press release stating "Nine reasons to sell Avanir"

[Anonymous]

First of all, let me say that I have accepted a conditional offer and am very excited to start my sales rep position with Avanir. I am very impressed with the management team and the potential for Nuedexta. I think it all depends on what your present circumstances are. If you have a good thing going and great future prospects, then stay where you are. I'm guessing most of the people interviewing, like me, are not completely happy where they are. If you are one of the unfortunate thousands laid off, then you are probably very excited about the Avanir sales positions.

I've worked in this industry for over ten years in a variety of positions and don't find anything unusual in the documentation they ask for. The best predictor of future performance is past performance. I can't tell you how many times over the years I've left a copy of my brag book with an interviewer. As I understand it, we will be calling on Psychiatrists and Neurologists. Of course they are going to ask you about your relationships with these specialists. I personally had no qualms about sharing doctor level information with Avanir. The numbers support the sales successes I describe, which helped me get the job. Do you really care about sharing this data-bottom line it helps you get the job.

Good luck to all those waiting to hear if you are still in the running. I think the management team will be very busy the next week getting written offers and other new rep items out to those of us who have accepted conditional offers. But they will also be reaching out to those candidates they want to move along in the process.

[Anonymous]

did the mgr you phone screened with initially-HH or ??-give you the condtl offer?

[Anonymous]

Yes-the mgr who phone screened me initially gave me the offer. We may have brought on more managers by now. I'm guessing the entire team will be about 6-7 managers reporting to MM.

[La Jolla, CA]

I believe asking for a W2 is invasive-especially when they won't answer questions as to why the drug keeps being rejected by the FDA. I feel if you create an environment of full disclosure-it has to apply to both sides. They should be prepared to answer questions on the QT prolongation which is typically a Black Box warning IF approved. Right now, investors are betting AGAINST Avanir-Bloomberg issued a press release stating "Nine reasons to sell Avanir"

"Nine reasons to sell Avanir" ?????? Wouldn't it be nice if you had 87,000 shares in your account?

This is why you're not going to get the job, and do yourself a favor - don't invest in anything!!!

[Anonymous]

I didn't see any coverage of the Bloomberg "story".
But what worries me are possible lawsuits against the company and ME for sharing confidential information. I've had previous jobs ask for rank and references but not handing over confidential information. This would seem like easy picking for a big pharma legal team. I mean this is just plain stupid. Why would management place the company at risk for lawsuits like this?

[Anonymous]

For the record MM did not "run MC and Sales at Amylin", SE Region was the highest level of sales leadership attained, went inside and the word is had to leave Amylin as every bridge was burned and was coached out. If the same sales leadership style is utilized at Avanir, business plans and micro management will be in place immediately. Reviews and second guessing local area achievement will follow. Amylin Sales region and MC folks celebrated the departure. Good luck to all

[Anonymous]

just keep laughing and crying