MSL's are overpaid and unnecessary

Sorry MSL's. There was a time when you guys were useful. Not anymore. You can barely talk out of label, and don't provide the value you once did. Since you are generally paid more than reps, your role is becoming more scrutinized, and likely becoming more dispensable.

depends on what company you are talking about. I can talk about anything i want

[ReimbursementMan]

My company's MSL's are Great and very much valuable.

I have to agree with the OP on this one. For a long time, MSL's were valuable, but they can say little more than us reps now. From what I understand, the scruity of MSL's is getting more and more intensified, and it appears that they will have to follow the same structure as the reps in the very near future.

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I have to agree with the OP on this one. For a long time, MSL's were valuable, but they can say little more than us reps now. From what I understand, the scruity of MSL's is getting more and more intensified, and it appears that they will have to follow the same structure as the reps in the very near future.

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Yeah right, think again. As long as there is a defined wall between med affairs and sales then that won't happen. If anything the role of sales is shrinking. No one will see you at all except the nurses for lunch.

I completely agree with the last post. While you salepeople are bringing in pizza so you can get 2 minutes with the doctor as he picks up his slices - I'm sitting in his office with him during lunch for 45+ minutes. Oh yeah, did you know he brought me two slices of the pizza you brought in to the office? Thanks for the food!

MSLs are not of use? See, someone who makes this statement obviously doesn't know the true value of a good MSL. We're not there to detail your physicians. If your MSLs are doing only that - then they're useless. Watch a good MSL work his/her magic to promote physician and patient education, find investigators for new studies, design the new studies, find out about new potential drug targets. I bet you don't even understand all of these things, cause all you can do is bring in lunch and talk about the selling points your manager taught you.

See, a GOOD MSL lives by the golden rule - help physicians treat patients the best they can - and if the company has a good drug, then guess what? The company's drug has a role in treating patients the best way they can be treated. If you're pushing a crap drug just to line your pocket, then I'm sorry for you - you're hurting innocent people to fulfill your own greed.

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Sorry MSL's. There was a time when you guys were useful. Not anymore. You can barely talk out of label, and don't provide the value you once did. Since you are generally paid more than reps, your role is becoming more scrutinized, and likely becoming more dispensable.

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For all of you discruntled sales reps upset with MSL's and the salaries they get. Grow up! If it is really bothering you that much go back to school and get your PharmD, PhD or even your M.D. if you think your up to it. Lets face it one day there maybe no more sales reps and just liaisons. I am sure doctors would much rather see their counterparts or peers instead of some two year copier rep that got a job as pharm rep because he didn't want to cold call any longer. Why do people with MBA's make more then your avaerage B.A. or B.S. simply because they went to school. If you all played your cards right the doctors (liaison's) could benefit from a good sales rep as well as the other way around. For now you all have to work together so stop crying http://www.cafepharma.com/ubbthreads...lins/crazy.gif

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Sorry MSL's. There was a time when you guys were useful. Not anymore. You can barely talk out of label, and don't provide the value you once did. Since you are generally paid more than reps, your role is becoming more scrutinized, and likely becoming more dispensable.

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For all of you discruntled sales reps upset with MSL's and the salaries they get. Grow up! If it is really bothering you that much go back to school and get your PharmD, PhD or even your M.D. if you think your up to it. Lets face it one day there maybe no more sales reps and just liaisons. I am sure doctors would much rather see their counterparts or peers instead of some two year copier rep that got a job as pharm rep because he didn't want to cold call any longer. Why do people with MBA's make more then your avaerage B.A. or B.S. simply because they went to school. If you all played your cards right the doctors (liaison's) could benefit from a good sales rep as well as the other way around. For now you all have to work together so stop crying http://www.cafepharma.com/ubbthreads...lins/crazy.gif

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You are missing the point. Since MSL's are paid more, and frankly, I agree they probably should be, they are a huge target for cutbacks. Their role really is being scrutinized, and if MSL's start getting the same legal constraints as reps, companies will trim the fat cats first. It just seems the way it goes.

I'm not sure if MSLs get paid a whole lot more than tenured reps, and they probably are paid less than tenured district managers for sure.

i love working w/ my msl but there is one thing that bugs me, he never trys to get appointments on his own, i am required to make them, so i need his calendar and the doctors calendar to line up, i endlessly call and email both aprties back and forth unitl the dates and times work, then something comes up and someone has to cancel and we do it all over again, i wish he would make the appt and then clue me in, i dont even nned to go w/ him, do most msl's make their own appts?

Originally Posted by Anonymous

i love working w/ my msl but there is one thing that bugs me, he never trys to get appointments on his own, i am required to make them, so i need his calendar and the doctors calendar to line up, i endlessly call and email both aprties back and forth unitl the dates and times work, then something comes up and someone has to cancel and we do it all over again, i wish he would make the appt and then clue me in, i dont even nned to go w/ him, do most msl's make their own appts?

That is So not right!
You are not his assistant!
Im an MSL and NO MSL I know, including myself, would ever dream of doing that.
I have the outmost respect for most (not all) of the Sales Reps in my territory.
btw... they are almost all senior reps and payed well above my salary (to the one that was whining about an MSL salary being higher that reps).

Has there been a job evaluation study comparing: No D; PharmD; PhD; M.D. in determining how each group does their job most effectively? What are the criteria for an effective MSL type? How do they measure results?

[PDLFU]

Nobody will ever do that kind of analysis that would be published. If it turned out negatively, they would have to explain to the CPAs (clearly perverted assholes) in the company why they are a drain. If it is positive, they would have every other company trying to hire their people away. The danger is that most of us hold doctorates and won't put ourselves through that kind of analysis.

MSLs getting payed more??? HAHAHAHAHA
We might have a higher base salary, but with your bonus - you get payed way more.

In my company, sales reps and MSL's get along great. We have figured out how to benefit from eachother

I guess what I'm trying to say is that: if an MSL works 2-4 hours per day on average (most stay home on the computer), making around $100,000 in salary, $25,000 bonus, $5-10,000 stock, and then $50,000 in stock options, then they are some of the highest paid people in the industry if you divide their actual "time on the job" (4 hours X 240 working days = around $150-$160/hr). Nice job (not including car/expense/vacation...). In other words, MSL's are overpaid for the ACTUAL amount of work they do!!!!!

Worst thing in my company is the FOREIGN MSLs who were supposedly a MD in THEIR country but the degree does not transfer totally over here, or they were RNs in THEIR county but transfers to being a LPN over here or some crap like that and all they do is complain about it. Go back to your country then you losers!

What is the pay range for an MSL??

100-125K

Originally Posted by Anonymous

I guess what I'm trying to say is that: if an MSL works 2-4 hours per day on average (most stay home on the computer), making around $100,000 in salary, $25,000 bonus, $5-10,000 stock, and then $50,000 in stock options, then they are some of the highest paid people in the industry if you divide their actual "time on the job" (4 hours X 240 working days = around $150-$160/hr). Nice job (not including car/expense/vacation...). In other words, MSL's are overpaid for the ACTUAL amount of work they do!!!!!

That is SO funny!!!

All MSL's I know push at least 60h per week, at least.. and if you include the constat travel... forget it!
2-4h per day!
Either your trolling or dont know Jack

btw, your numbers on salary etc is WAy of track, I wish you were right!!!!

I thank God for my MSL. I have to stick with the package insert, and my MSL can give them the lastest study information that I want to, but can't. MSL's are very valuable, and I incorporate mine into the team. To not utilize your MSL is the height of stupidity (unless they are a loser MSL, which some are, but the majority seem excellent).

Originally Posted by Anonymous

I thank God for my MSL. I have to stick with the package insert, and my MSL can give them the lastest study information that I want to, but can't. MSL's are very valuable, and I incorporate mine into the team. To not utilize your MSL is the height of stupidity (unless they are a loser MSL, which some are, but the majority seem excellent).

MSLs can be an amazing resource to both our customer base and our internal team. The position, however is not a homogeneous one. The MSL role ranges from glorified sales rep to ivory towered technocrat, and everything in between. For my money, give me someone with an advanced degree and a gift for interpersonal connection OR and a fantastic relationship builder with a passion for science and patient care. I have seen both of these types become incredible resources and effective agents for the companies they work for.
On the other hand, there is no greater waste of funds and people's time than some idiot with an advanced degree that thinks the letters behind his/her name means instant respect is due them. Or some small minded naive bookworm who thinks sales is the "dark side" and doesn't comprehend the correlation between company revenue, and the health/stability of their very own positon. Throw in the dolt from sales that complains about bloated MSL salaries and wonders why their MSL won't sway their key target for them, and you have a rift that develops between MSLs and Sales. What a pointless and wasteful debate! In the end, it's all about putting the right people in positions that suit their backgrounds AND personalities, in my humble but accurate opinion.
Signed,
BS Pharmacist, former MSL, current Sales guy

I have over 15 years of pharma experience. MSL's are a waste of money, time and productivity. They meet with opinion leaders once every 6 months. Does that really influence their opinion? NO!

If a MSL is not meeting with a KOL what are they doing all day. The MSL job has alot of down time. In fact, it can be a part-time job.

The original poster is half right.... MSL's and sales reps are not necessarily both necessary. But he really should be careful what he wishes for. Any MSL wcan do a sales reps job, but the vast majority of sales reps are not willing to go get a Ph.D/M.D. or even take the time to purchase a Pharm.D from an online gumball machine.

Sooooooo.... more likely path for the industry is to have the MSL folks take over the rep jobs and get the benefits of both rather than maintain a sales rep with no science grad degree.

I don't understand all this fighting back and forth over who is more valuable. I am in Biotech Sales, having come from PC Sales and find MSL's valuable. Specialist sales people, for the most part are all for them being a resource. The problem is that you have a bunch of young, inexperienced people in primary care that don't know how to work with, or "use" their MSL to strengthen their own credibility in the territory. These Reps don't want MSL's in their territory speaking to physicians about little things like quality patient care, identification of appropriate candidates, etal...because for the most part they could care less about those things as long as they make their bonus. It's to bad, but true. Strong Reps welcome that and MSL's should respect Reps until they are proven wrong by an individual. Too much blanket statements about both sides really in my opinion.

The MSLs that come into our dept. hsve changed in recent years. They used to come in to meet with faculty involved in research that the company they work for is involved in- usually PIII or occasionally PIV trials. I never paid attention to their academic background, but I certainly paid attention to their level of understanding in R&D.
Nowadays, every MSL I meet with has either a PharmD or PhD, but they also seem to have an agenda to push. Their credibility is usually lost in the first meeting. If the MSL doesn't have a clear understanding of their own company's R&D strategy, what am I supposed to think about the MSLs opinion about current therapies? Not much.

Most MSLs have become sales people without the title. Unfortunately, the change will lead to the demise of the position. Soon, PharmDs and PhDs will realize the job has little substance and pursue other jobs. The industry is renowned for trying to bend the rules. MSLs will soon be a distant memory.

The writing is on the wall. I used to be able to do my job and raise my kids with few complications, e.g., overnight travel, company meetings, weekends at conferences, etc. Now I spend more time in airports than I do at home with my family. After I have my third child, I'm going back to counting pills.

Agree with OP- MSLs are unnecessary, but for different reasons. It has nothing to do with being able to talk off label to KOLs. That has always been a rule-bending device mentioned earlier for the benefit of sales.
MSLs are unnecessary because companies no longer recognize the value in having a medical relationship with academic researchers and exchange of clinical information. MSLs are only seen to be of value if they are selling.
KOLs are not interested in having companies sell their data to them, so MSLs will eventually get turned away more and more often until they become completely irrelevant or companies decide to go ahead and label them sales reps.

Originally Posted by Anonymous

Sorry MSL's. There was a time when you guys were useful. Not anymore. You can barely talk out of label, and don't provide the value you once did. Since you are generally paid more than reps, your role is becoming more scrutinized, and likely becoming more dispensable.

You are right. I was an MSL for Upjohn and Pharmacia for many years. It WAS the best field job bar none. Now...the field segment of Pharma is handcuffed. It's tough to do business and enjoy it with your hands tied behind you back.

Whatever happened to freedom of speech?

The job is still good, just need to be more careful.

Beats having to work in "pods", with other sample droppers, playing pretend.

Repbots, time to wake up. You are USELESS!!!

I think what I'd like about being a MSL over a rep. is not having to sample drop and less time spent on lunches where physician don't show, and more time educating. Are physicians more open to going to medical education events (dinners) with MSL than the sales rep.?

I'd like to spend more time educating than kissing butt and working on relationships which is what seems to work with reps. Do many physicians respect the MSL role and offer appointment times?

I know most companies require the MSL to be a MD, PhD, or PharmD, but do some still except advanced level practioners, PA or NP, with a graduate degree at masters level, MPH or MMS?

At least I can still meet with the MD anywhere and anytime, to discuss anything....did today for an hour while you picking up the snack tray and having the AA sign for the samples. I was the reason the doctor could not see you today....in fact he almost let me sign for the samples myself...joked he was going to sign Elmer Fudd on the line today. Thanks for chips a dip girls and boys. By the way, I bet you will look good in Home Depot orange, your next job.

Originally Posted by Anonymous

At least I can still meet with the MD anywhere and anytime, to discuss anything....did today for an hour while you picking up the snack tray and having the AA sign for the samples. I was the reason the doctor could not see you today....in fact he almost let me sign for the samples myself...joked he was going to sign Elmer Fudd on the line today. Thanks for chips a dip girls and boys. By the way, I bet you will look good in Home Depot orange, your next job.

Wow I can only imagine what specialty you were calling if the physician was signing for samples! What, out of curiosity, therapeutic area and drug to you “support”? I’m guessing something very basic. I’ve been an oncology rep for 12 years and have better access to 99% of the thought leaders at key academic institutions than any MSL I’ve ever worked with, and most of the time they need us reps to get them in and help establish the relationship. Not to mention that unless they worked in a cancer center they know very little about cancer therapies other than classes of each, and we end up having to show them the ropes…

Sorry to be so grumpy, but whether MSLs or plain reps, all are going to disappear.
With tightening regulation, and a discrepancy between "what do you earn?" and "what do you make?", with many other sales channels, models, and points of call, and not to forget, with the great public image the rep (I admit, this goes less for the MSL) has, the industry will change. Actually, it already does.

So keep on squabbling about who is best: it is not your call. The only thing you can do is what is possible now and what you are allowed to. If the rules or the weather change, so does your life. Nobody is irreplaceable, or essential.
And to the OP: so tell me, how are you going to defend paying a rep hanging around for 2-3 hrs trying to speak a doc for 2 mins on a $100.000? That is why they have call centers making those appointments for you nowadays, dickhead.

The only thing more worthless than a rep is a black rep.

Originally Posted by Anonymous

The only thing more worthless than a rep is a black rep.

BEST LINE EVAH!!!!!!!!!!!!