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Is Arestin kicking your ASS?

Discussion in 'CollaGenex' started by Anonymous, May 18, 2004 at 12:50 PM.

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  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Putty in their hands, you need the treatment, and paid...it's a shame this is how healthcare is ran in this country, gauge the patient and pamper the docs who care less...good luck, the dentist that treated you has already been out to some fancy dinner with some good looking rep, who ordered expensive wine to impress...it's such bull that the pharma companies can send folks to bribe the docs, THIS SHOULD BE ILLEGAL AND GOV'T CONTROLLED!!! CAN YOU IMAGINE IF WE WERE DOING THIS WITH OUR TAX GUYS...THEY SURE WOULD STEP IN THEN!!! I feel sorry for us all.

  2. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    So, true. Forget the nice cars and paying for the dentist's gas bill...it's WAY more that that, see these guys attend conferences and meetings where reps are all over them, some literally. Besides that, if you have a good guy, he's being taken out for dinners during these conferences where CEO's and reps are stroking egos and supplying incentives, wine, dinner, free-bee's, exclusive tickets to events like company sponsored superbowl parties, or events at car dealerships, it's total BRIBARY...there's probably some legal loophole that allows this, or maybe just not publicized enough for it to be gov't controlled...however, patients suffer because docs/dentists are using products based on company relationships, not necessarily for the needs of the patient. There's always some new application or drug, but the docs only use those from the companies they know well - hell, some of them are freakin shareholders in these companies and are trying to drive the business too...what do we do?
  3. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I somehow stumbled onto this website after googling arestin usage. I'm a RDH, employed by corporate America. We have Arestin usage jammed down our throat on a daily basis to reach our higher than the sky goals. Orapharma reps always bring "The Devil's Advocate" movie to mind.
  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I don't think Collagenex exists anymore - so yeah I think arestin kicked its ass
  5. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Hey folks, neutral person here.

    How much does a Tolmar rep make in salary and comission? Are you given a car allowance and expense accnt?

    Same ? for the Arestin reps.

    Thanks!!! :0)
  6. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Stumbled on this and it is hysterical!! Where do i sign up? Superbowl parties and free cars?? You have no clue dude...

    There may be some big physician or multispecialty groups that swing enough weight to rate some minor perks - not nearly as big as most insurance and banking execs get - but most drug companies don't even send reps out to dentists because the market is so small. We have to PAY to attend seminars and continuing education. Most times several HUNDRED dollars per hour. You may get a discounted rate to buy at a seminar or convention but you usually must buy in large quantity.

    As this thread says - most dentists are hard to sell anything to. Perhaps it's because when we add anything that insurance companies may not pay for, most patients think it should be free - talk about a conspiracy... Arestin is $20 per carpule if you buy at least 20 of them at a time and keep on the shelf until they expire. Otherwise I think they are about $30. Atridox is about $160 a vial. They require certification for the staff which you must pay your staff for - I have yet to find people that will work for free. You?? At the rate I pay my hygienists, the hours worked out to about $3,000. After all that, we charge $28 per site. WOW - I'm on my way to a used Kia after only 2,000 sites! Listen to the complaints even here - some lady is PO'd cause she paid 75 bucks for 3 sites of a drug that cost the dentist at least $60. Does that sound to you like some hidden gold mine worth millions?? No wonder collagenex is out of the business.

    If you want to look for a conspiracy theory, ask yourself why the insurance industry vehemently opposes removing antitrust legislation or allowing interstate competition. Find out why they don't want a single payor system or even price negotiation. While your at it, try to figure out why GM recalled and crushed every EV1 electric car even though they were a huge success and instead bought Hummer. Could it be that at the same time, our government offers a max $4000 incentive for electric cars while offering up to a $100,000 tax break for trucks over 6,000 pounds??

    If you find out whose giving away all the wine and throwing these great parties let me know.
  7. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    But the coffe or the coke I buy when I want to, it does not cost me that much at one time purchase.
  8. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I also came upon this website looking for more info on Arestin. They said my husband has gum disease. they want me to pay $100 for ONE side of the mouth.. and that is just to put it in. That is not including the cost of the antibiotic. God only knows how much thats going to cost! This is a COMPLETE rip off! I work in a hospital and I see how doctors work. Oh a patient is dying from cancer.. lets just give the chemo to see what that does. Cha- Ching... thousands in his pocket when the patient is going to die NO MATTER WHAT! Is this going to help my husbands teeth? There is a great chance it will. I'm paying out the ass right now.. shit better work!
  9. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    First off- the HIGHEST price point for Arestin is $20 per site and depending on volume purchased may be as little as $13.50 a site. In addition, there is NO necessary training to place Arestin, it is MUCH easier than Atridox or Periochip! As a practicing DDS, I recommend every site a patient needs. If it's over $150 for the patient out of pocket, I ALWAYS write an Arestin prescription instead the patient simply pays their pharmacy co-pay an the pharmacy takes on the task of verifying benefits and filing for re-imbursment! Saves me and the patient a lot of money. If you're still running your practice by buying Arestin and re-selling it one site at a time, you're not treating ethically and you're not making smart business decisions either!!! Good luck to you and, God help your patients!
  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Wow Post 69...you work in a hospital? Doing what, obviously nothing that allows you basic medical understanding. Antibiotics are free at any WalMart, Walgreens or dozens of other locations, and I you do purchase them, they will cost under $10. The antibiotic was prescribed because your husband has perio disease AND an active infection. Might want to stop complaining and take the dentist's advice before he loses his teeth...which WILL happen if probemSSSS are not addressed. As fas as Arestin is concerned, no you are not making your dentist's Cadilas payment but you are probably making the Orapharm reps Jaguar payment. The dentist's cost is right at $20 per site. If he needs his "entire side of the mouth done", I am assuming you meant a quadrant, that would be approx. 6 teeth at a cost of $16.66 each, cheaper than what the dr. is probably paying. Hope this help ;-)
  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Just a note of clarification: For the $20 per site that Arestin costs, you're buying 1mg of drug and every site your treat costs $20. It gets really expensive for patients and many don't or can't accept the treatment because of the cost. Atridox costs about $60 per syringe, but one syringe can treat up to 12 sites! My math tells me that works out to about $5 per site vs. $20 per site for Arestin! Additionally, one syringe of Atridox contains 50 mg of drug. Even if I treated 12 sites, I'd be delivering over 4mg of drug to each site. Atridox is less expensive (which is good for the patient too) and delivers more drug. Arestin costs $20/mg and Atridox costs $1.20/mg!! Seems like a no-brainer if the objective is cost-effective, quality care.

    Oh and by the way, if you really take a look at the numbers related to submitting a prescription for Arestin (through their pharmacy program), the only two parties that lose are the dental office that elects to participate (lost profit) and the patient (must return for a 2nd Arestin placement visit). The whole program is a strategy by Arestin to make it appear to both the patient and the dentist that the Arestin treatment is inexpensive. However, the dentist that elects to participate in this program loses all of his/her former profit from dispensing Arestin and, from what I've heard, very few dentists charge, or are able to charge, placement fees (there's no insurance code for just placement). Additionally, the patient is inconvenienced because they are required to schedule a second visit to have the Arestin placed. If you take a comparitive look at profit for dentist, the Arestin pharmacy program ranks dead last, Atridox is the most profitable (and its low cost increases patient acceptance too). Stocking and dispensing Arestin falls in the middle on the dentist profit continuum.
  12. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Re: Is Arestin & Monarch Co. kicking your ASS?

    Monarch of Plano (3516 Preston Rd # 600, Plano, TX) is also participating to rip off the customers in the name of Arestin treatment. The Dental Hygienist there has pushed me so much the last several visits to accept the treatment of this antibiotic. During my last visit this week she was very aggressive stating that I am risking to loose my teeth if she did not apply the Arestin treatment. Now I say, Stupid me, I agreed to it. They charged me $66 per each location, total of $132 for 2 locations. Now that I read the complaint posted by others for the $20 a pop, I realize that Monarch not only robbed me blind but they do not hesitate to screw me badly anytime they can. Hey everyone, Watch out when dealing with Monarch. What a rip-off Company it is. Don't ask about their profession, it is the lowest grade ever. I am mandated to go there by the dental insurance Co without any other options.
  13. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Bottom line as to why Arestin has kicked Atridox and Periochip's ass going on, I don't know, just about forever now. It it easier to use (unit dose), it works as well if not better in the delivery system design (it's not about the antibiotic), and OraPharma had a WAY better plan of attack and value to the dental market.

    This fight was never a fight from the start. The only "competitor" Arestin really has is someone who is not using it yet.

    If it didn't work, it would have died 10 years ago.
  14. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I just got treated twice with Arestin in the last 10 days... A total of 25 sites at $75/site. I have good hygiene. My gums are mostly 3s in pocket. My insurance covered $15 of the $75 per. I paid out of pocket 25 x $60 = $1500. I found this to be exorbitant, especially after doing more research. I asked if they can provide me a discount for the number of sites? None. This is in San Diego, CA. Is this ethical? What should I do?
  15. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Arestin is indicated for bleeding (indicates chronic infection) 5s and up. The price is kind of high as well.
  16. Webmasterrdh

    Webmasterrdh Guest

    I am a dental hygienist and always warn the patient that the insurance probably will NOT cover more than one or two sites of Arestin. MOST don't cover it at all from my experience, so I think it is unethical to lead a patient to believe insurance will cover it. Some patients have asked if its necessary. I say no, but I think it is beneficial. Mostly, if cost is an issue, I try without and usually patients heal just from removing the calculus and doing an irrigation with hydrogen peroxide. The most important instrument I have is the cavitron with a slim tip to clean and lavage deep in the pockets. The cost of the product itself is pretty high. Last I checked it was almost $20 for each one that the dentist pays and we do "lose" one once in a while...that is, we put it in and it doesn't stay in because it wasn't dry enough and then we eat the cost as we put in another one. I am very happy the dentist I work for now does not try to do that to patients. We are very honest about what your bill will be.
  17. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Wow. I don’t exactly recall just what I “Googled” in order to arrive here, but this has none the less been an amazingly educational read. Looks like the sales reps have pretty much petered out (so this may well be a waste of my time) and only a few patients have responded to this thread in recent years.

    My story: My dentist & hygienists have been concerned about the depth of my pockets for a year or so – mostly 2 & 3’s, with several 4 & 5’s. They’ve warned about the possibility of needing scaling & root planning (SRP), or maybe even surgery, if things didn’t improve. So I’ve flossed & Waterpik’ed like crazy, but my pockets remain about the same – nothing more than 5 mm though. My hygienist & dentist are now strongly recommending SRP ($246/quad x 2 quads) and Arestin treatment for up to 10 teeth ($46/tooth for initial application). Will more treatments follow? No discussion of that yet.

    The whole idea of squirting an antibiotic into a pocket infected with periodontal disease makes perfect sense to me – The problem is a persistent bacterial infection that flossing, Waterpik’ing, and toothpaste has a difficult time reaching or correcting, so why not get some antibacterial stuff put deep in there? It’s got to work, right?

    So first I go to the Arestin website, which makes some rather impressive claims:
    -- “Clinical studies show that ARESTIN® with SRP is up to 3x more effective than SRP alone.”
    -- “Significantly reduces pocket depths.”

    Then I find the Arestin studies which show that when the patient began with pocket-depths of 5+mm, the pocket improvement of SRP-alone averaged 1.18mm. With Arestin treatment added to the SRP procedure (with 3 treatments of Arestin, 3 months apart) and looking 9 months after SRP, the pocket improvement (Arestin+SRP over SRP alone) was just .24mm. The study showed that the deeper the initial pockets, the better the improvement with Arestin (starting with 6+mm pockets showed an average of .42mm improvement over SRP alone, and 7+mm pockets showed a .96mm improvement).

    So, help me out here – Starting at a maximum of 5mm, is a .24mm pocket-reduction with RSP + Arestin over a 1.18mm pocket-reduction of RSP alone a significant improvement? How does the Arestin-claimed “3X more effective” or “Significantly reduces pocket depths” fit in here? I’m a patient, not a dental professional of course, but .24mm over 1.18mm, when starting with 5mm, does not sound like a significant improvement to me. Is it?

    The professional sales reps on this thread (which initially were the bulk of replies) sound like a bunch of self-centered, greedy, disgruntled, corporate-ladder climbing, the-hell-with-the-patient, if I must trick/manipulate the dental community in order to get mine, so be it, mentality. The more rational, well spoken, and most rational thinking posters seemed to be of the dental hygienist/patient types. Imagine that!

    So is this all it’s about? The medications that are most recommended/pushed by our dentists or doctors are basically only the ones that have been most effectively manipulate/pushed by their pharmaceutical sales reps? Seriously?

    I’ve stuck with my current dentist for many years because initially he was better reviewed than most, and as time went on I felt he was much better than most other dentists I have dealt with. Now I have to question my choice.

    Years ago, I lived next to a Pharmaceutical rep. His garage was so full of “gifts” to give away to doctors that he could not fit his car into his garage. At the time I thought it was all rather silly. Now I’m thinking that it was more criminal than silly. We people (the idiot patients that the sales reps refer to) rely on the medical/dental community for the supposed truths that might make our lives better, at “our” expense. It’s somewhat of a living hell to discover that my “expenses” have not so much been spent on significantly improving the “bettering of my health”, as it may have been for improving the profit margin of the pharma company and sales rep, as well as my dentist/doctor.

    How do any of you sleep at night, knowing full and well that your absolute priority in life, and in your career, is primarily to benefit yourself and your employer, over the very customer you and your industry “claim” to be looking out for? Most everything I’ve read here has bragged about the genius and benefit of gusto/salesmanship over good old fashioned objective/logical/rational reasoning as to what might be best for that “idiot” patient, as well as how best to ultimately move cash from the patient’s wallet into your own.

    It’s a sad state of affairs in my opinion. I’m a simple person. All I’m looking for is good health and good teeth. I’m more than willing to pay for it, if only it could be true. Unfortunately, I must keep my guard up, over those in the medical community that I regularly deal with for the supposed purpose of improving my health, to protect myself from ultimate greedy effects of the likes of you – big pharma and the sales-rep.

    Don’t get me confused – I’m pretty much politically conservative. I’m all for business, free enterprise, salesmanship,.etc. But come on – I’ve always been under the impression that conservatism was primarily about taking the high road, with profits taking a close but obviously necessary second.

    So please tell me, how far off from realty am I on all this?
  18. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Well said on the previous comment. I have read so much on Arestin/Antridox I no longer no whom to believe. Certainly not the reps. I just received an insurance quote, the ins charge is $980 for Arestin; my co-pay would be $240. This is for visit 1 of at least 2. You guys tell me, why should anyone waste their money on a .94mm at it's best improvement to the deep pocket? Seems like deep pockets are everywhere these days. Only thing is, mine are empty! After giving to the medical profession year after year...I am done!
  19. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Holy smokes! Like others in this sequence, I Googled Arestin, trying to deal with sticker shock. I have in my hand a "treatment plan" from the dentist indicating a whole lot of Arestin on essentially every one of my teeth, to total out of my pocket about $1400. (I don't happen to have $1400 handy in the cookie jar. Called the employer-provided dental insurance---what a joke. Tell me again why they call it dental insurance? Called Blue Cross, and after several long spells on hold, the final final answer was "not covered." Asked a dentist relative (not the one treating me). He said "XXXXing rip-off, run away." So, I have no idea if I need the stuff, or if it will help some, or if it might help a little, or if it is total garbage. Nor do I know if the huge fee is out of line, or how to get it in line. Excess dentist profit? What a dumb mess. Sure am glad I'm in the hands of an insurance company and trustworthy professionals! Maybe I ought to save that $1400 for dentures (or for the %$# veternarian). What I really think is that there are too many dentists (and drug reps), and they all want to live high above their natural modest place in the professional pecking order. Our local Nova University cranks out fresh new dentists like sausages. How else can they all drive beamers if they don't "drill" the patients?
  20. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    i was at the dentist's office today and i was told that i needed arestin on my top back left and right molars ( two deep pockets) they told me the insurance does not cover anything so it costs $ 950.00 they offered me to pay on credit with 0%. I said NO maybe in the future.
    Today my co-payment for deep cleaning was $280.00 plus i need two crowns and the co-payment will be almost $800.00. How in the world am i supposed to pay for all this in 3 visits. They insisted that arestin is wonderful and is worth getting it. It is good that I'm googleing it first.