Menu
Home
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
job listings
catering
whistleblower info
legal help
advertise on CP
submit press release
Menu
Log in
Sign up
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
More...
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
Cafepharma Message Boards | Pharma Sales, Device Sales, Lab Sales
Home
Forums
>
Medical Equipment/Device Sales
>
NuVasive
>
NuVasive to carry Osteocel
>
Reply to Thread
Name:
Verification:
Answer the above question:
(
CustomImgCaptcha
By
Surrey Forum
)
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="Concerned Scientist, post: 3012251"]It is nice to hear from someone with a little more knowledge than spitting insults. </p><p><br /></p><p>You say thought that the difference between Osteocel and Osteocel Plus is the validation. So are you suggesting that Osteocel wasn't validated? I don't think so, but anyway I get the whole immunodepletion deal and partly buy that. However, your numbers on the stem cell count is far from accurate - and thus Nuvasive's/Osiris' presentation of those numbers are far from accurate as well. </p><p>I don't have to speak to anyone but instead look at the basic anatomy of the human body and what we know from research. </p><p>First, refer to this link</p><p><a href="http://www.engin.umich.edu/class/bme456/bonestructure/bonestructure.htm" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.engin.umich.edu/class/bme456/bonestructure/bonestructure.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.engin.umich.edu/class/bme456/bonestructure/bonestructure.htm</a></p><p>Go down to the volume of bone in the human body. The reference goes back to chapter of a book by Jee et al from 1983 on Histology. The cancellous bone is 350,000 mm^3 (350 cm^3 or 350cc). The average porosity of cancellous bone is 80% (95% to 40%). SO you have a total yield of 280cc of bone marrow aspirate in the human donor cadaver. </p><p>Another reference by a Radiological Society suggested 540cc of total cancellous bone in the body (436cc marrow). Let's stick with 280cc for now. </p><p>Second, refer to one of the leaders in aspiration research with Muschler et al. </p><p>One of his key papers is online for free at </p><p><a href="http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1424877" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1424877" rel="nofollow">http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1424877</a></p><p>They gathered a natural level of 365 to 500 osteoprogenitors per cc of aspirate (the higher levels found in the deep part of the pedicles rather than the iliac crest). This is the average of 186 samples. </p><p>So taking 500 stem cells/cc with 280cc of possible aspirate and you get a total of 140,000 stem cells in the cadaver. </p><p>If you take really high levels of cancellous bone aspirate (500cc) with really high stem cell levels (1500/cc), you still only get 750,000 stem cells - barely enough for 3cc of Osteocel product if you concentrated it all down. And since Osteocel does not combine lots and does not culture the stem cells, how can you ever have a 5cc product let alone a 1cc offering at the 140,000 more realistic level. </p><p>If you can explain this argument away, then I am willing to listen. I need more real evidence than "from different sources I have spoken with." </p><p><br /></p><p>And yes endochondral bone formation is the most common especially when micromotion is in effect. But under rigid circumstances, some osteoinductive agents (and yes it is BMP-2, the most widely studied product out there for bone grafting regardless) have been shown to actually grow intramembrous bone formation by directly translating mesenchymal cells into osteoblasts. Although, BMP-2 does most of its process through endochondral because of the micromotion that exists in the cage, or when a nail is used, or in the posterolateral space, etc. The animal models back it up. </p><p><br /></p><p>And a yes a signal is needed. The amount of turnover of mesenchymal cells because of their environment is small. Not to mention that one of the biggest factors of BMP-2 is that it encourages replication of stem cells, Cheng et al - he studied all 14 BMPs at that time and compared them. So more and more cells are made not just however many you can claim may or may not be there. </p><p><br /></p><p>But I digress so I get back to the main point, if you can explain away the apparent lack of enough stem cells in the human cancellous bone on average, then please do so. I am all ears. Thanks for honest dialogue.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Concerned Scientist, post: 3012251"]It is nice to hear from someone with a little more knowledge than spitting insults. You say thought that the difference between Osteocel and Osteocel Plus is the validation. So are you suggesting that Osteocel wasn't validated? I don't think so, but anyway I get the whole immunodepletion deal and partly buy that. However, your numbers on the stem cell count is far from accurate - and thus Nuvasive's/Osiris' presentation of those numbers are far from accurate as well. I don't have to speak to anyone but instead look at the basic anatomy of the human body and what we know from research. First, refer to this link [url]http://www.engin.umich.edu/class/bme456/bonestructure/bonestructure.htm[/url] Go down to the volume of bone in the human body. The reference goes back to chapter of a book by Jee et al from 1983 on Histology. The cancellous bone is 350,000 mm^3 (350 cm^3 or 350cc). The average porosity of cancellous bone is 80% (95% to 40%). SO you have a total yield of 280cc of bone marrow aspirate in the human donor cadaver. Another reference by a Radiological Society suggested 540cc of total cancellous bone in the body (436cc marrow). Let's stick with 280cc for now. Second, refer to one of the leaders in aspiration research with Muschler et al. One of his key papers is online for free at [url]http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1424877[/url] They gathered a natural level of 365 to 500 osteoprogenitors per cc of aspirate (the higher levels found in the deep part of the pedicles rather than the iliac crest). This is the average of 186 samples. So taking 500 stem cells/cc with 280cc of possible aspirate and you get a total of 140,000 stem cells in the cadaver. If you take really high levels of cancellous bone aspirate (500cc) with really high stem cell levels (1500/cc), you still only get 750,000 stem cells - barely enough for 3cc of Osteocel product if you concentrated it all down. And since Osteocel does not combine lots and does not culture the stem cells, how can you ever have a 5cc product let alone a 1cc offering at the 140,000 more realistic level. If you can explain this argument away, then I am willing to listen. I need more real evidence than "from different sources I have spoken with." And yes endochondral bone formation is the most common especially when micromotion is in effect. But under rigid circumstances, some osteoinductive agents (and yes it is BMP-2, the most widely studied product out there for bone grafting regardless) have been shown to actually grow intramembrous bone formation by directly translating mesenchymal cells into osteoblasts. Although, BMP-2 does most of its process through endochondral because of the micromotion that exists in the cage, or when a nail is used, or in the posterolateral space, etc. The animal models back it up. And a yes a signal is needed. The amount of turnover of mesenchymal cells because of their environment is small. Not to mention that one of the biggest factors of BMP-2 is that it encourages replication of stem cells, Cheng et al - he studied all 14 BMPs at that time and compared them. So more and more cells are made not just however many you can claim may or may not be there. But I digress so I get back to the main point, if you can explain away the apparent lack of enough stem cells in the human cancellous bone on average, then please do so. I am all ears. Thanks for honest dialogue.[/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Cafepharma Message Boards | Pharma Sales, Device Sales, Lab Sales
Home
Forums
>
Medical Equipment/Device Sales
>
NuVasive
>
NuVasive to carry Osteocel
>
Cafepharma Message Boards | Pharma Sales, Device Sales, Lab Sales
Home
Forums
>
Medical Equipment/Device Sales
>
NuVasive
>
NuVasive to carry Osteocel
>