Well, another thread gone


Very concisely stated and the word 'spawn' is what I mean by 'bad seed'. Currently accepted thinking scientific ackowledges both behavioral AND genetic determinants of behavior. Not only does the innocent victim want this thing out of her, it may be the most responsible thing to do for society. Much like one person's NET theory, we hate to kill but if it benefits more than harms society, so be it. The benefits are the preservation of emotional and physical health for an innocent rapee as well as removing a potentially bad seed (spawn) from society. The only downside is that a speck of goo goes straight to heaven (if in fact 1) there even is a heaven or 2) that speck of goo is in fact a life with a soul). This is kind of a no brainer.

There are endless studies showing a genetic connection related to a propensity towards violence. Most also show that 'nurturing' influences can overcome those propensities. Unfortunately, most of the better studies are buried or shut down because of perceived racial or even Nazi concerns. There are even concerns that such a genetic connection could be used for lighter sentencing for violent offenders. So some don't stand a chance, like the 13 yr old in the news, conceived in violence, raised in violence, who has now sexually assaulted and murdered others. But there are also many stories of those conceived by truly evil parents who are normal, decent people.

For me it is simple. I want every tangible reminder of an assault gone. Some people discard everything touched during a home robbery, paint the rooms, or even sell the home. I don't think this is a difficult concept. The mother should not have to pay for the crimes of the father, right?
 


There are endless studies showing a genetic connection related to a propensity towards violence. Most also show that 'nurturing' influences can overcome those propensities. Unfortunately, most of the better studies are buried or shut down because of perceived racial or even Nazi concerns. There are even concerns that such a genetic connection could be used for lighter sentencing for violent offenders. So some don't stand a chance, like the 13 yr old in the news, conceived in violence, raised in violence, who has now sexually assaulted and murdered others. But there are also many stories of those conceived by truly evil parents who are normal, decent people.

For me it is simple. I want every tangible reminder of an assault gone. Some people discard everything touched during a home robbery, paint the rooms, or even sell the home. I don't think this is a difficult concept. The mother should not have to pay for the crimes of the father, right?

Neither should the child.
 


Neither should the child.

Butwe don't even have agreement if it IS a child, however, lets assume it is. In wartime it's OK by you to kill an innocent child if it betters a bigger cause. So I say the 'bigger cause' is an innocent woman who was raped and impregnated with the disgusting sperm of a criminal that just might be laden with behavioral malware. You want her to give up 9 months of her health and her life and her innocense because what? She owes the speck of goo a life? C'mon MFAs, this is getting more absurd by the minute.

She has every right to ya nk the bad seed bastard and try to go on with her life. Anything less is inhumane.
 


What is obvious to me is that those who claim to 'respect life' either only consider life as being the fact you are alive and breathing, as any consideration beyond that is not given to the woman. She is an aside, and hardly even part of the conversation.

But moving on, let's talk about reality instead of the nice little boxes those with black and white positions want everything to fit neatly into.

Some comments from real life:

Even women who try to learn their child’s blamelessness can find it desperately difficult. The British psychoanalyst Joan Raphael-Leff writes of women bearing children conceived in rape, “The woman feels she has growing inside her part of a hateful or distasteful Other. Unless this feeling can be resolved, the fœtus who takes on these characteristics is liable to remain an internal foreigner, barely tolerated or in constant danger of expulsion, and the baby will emerge part-stranger, likely to be ostracized or punished.” One rape survivor, in testimony before the Louisiana Senate Committee on Health and Welfare, described her son as “a living, breathing torture mechanism that replayed in my mind over and over the rape.” Another woman described having a rape-conceived son as “entrapment beyond description” and felt “the child was cursed from birth”; the child ultimately had severe psychological challenges and was removed from the family by social services concerned about his mental well-being.

Then there are real-life financial considerations. An uncomplicated pregnancy with prenatal care and a vaginal birth will cost upwards from about $10,000. Costs go up dramatically if there are any complications. Let's assume the woman has insurance but with deductibles and copays, will have to pay about $4,000, which is considered average. So the woman and her family are supposed to pay this. Any of us not the government have to make choices with our money and what is spent in one place has to come from somewhere else. Why should the family make this sacrifice because they were the victim of a crime?

Now factor in the prenatal visits. If the woman is working, she must take time off work. For many, that will be unpaid. Even paid, the time off for prenatal care increases throughout the pregnancy and is once per week the last couple of months. Not every employer is understanding. Then she will take at least a few weeks off work. She gets mommy tracked, even if she doesn't keep the child, and her lifetime earnings goes down. That's if she is lucky enough to be able to keep a job at all. What if she is in school? In many majors, the time off would end up meaning missing an entire year. Do you know how rare it is for someone to return to college once they leave?

I would love to hear the perspective from some husbands other than MFAS. My pregnancies were very easy but they were also some of the most special times my husband and I had as a couple. Are you going to take care of her and think it is all worth it if she is very ill for the first 3 months? Are you going to get up at 3 in the morning and prepare a snack for her to minimize the morning sickness? Are you going to beam looking across the room at your wife as she expands? Are you going to put your hand on her stomach and giggle like little kids the first time you feel the child move? Are you going to run out to the store at all hours, laughing with good intentions, about the latest odd food craving? Or are you going to watch the growing evidence of her pregnancy and see a constant reminder of the animal that destroyed her sense of self and safety? Are you going to hate your impotence to 'fix' and undo what has happened? Are you going to look at this newborn, with the eyes and hair coloring of the rapist, with love and awe, or hatred? There is a reason that in times past that children of rape were allowed to be left exposed to the elements until they died.

How should the mother react every time a stranger cries out with joy 'oh you're pregnant! Congratulations! You must be so excited! Or explaining to every future partner, every future health care provider, about the 'other child'. Does she explain and go on being a victim for more time, or pretend to be pleased?

If the crime of rape is not proven in a court of law, even if there is clear proof but the woman chooses to not go through the fiasco of court, there are many cases where the rapist takes great joy in his conquest and fertility. These are the cases where the rapist demands visitation or more.

Oh, but the child! We must protect the life of the child! Why, just adopt! Unless the child is a very healthy white baby, the odds of adoption are slim. Do you know it costs more to adopt a healthy white child due to demand?

I Believe DD brought up - how do you tell this child about the 'father'? How do they face kids at school, future dating partners, and future in-laws? Sure, there are some that will where this as a badge of honor but I doubt you would want to be this child.

MFAS: Especially for you. Please read this attachment. This is written by a mother who chose to keep the child. She talks frankly of her struggles for a child she decided she wanted! Only a small portion of her distress was caused by people thinking she should abort. Can you imagine if she had no choice at all? http://www.pandys.org/survivingthememories/mother.html You really need to gain some awareness that this is not just a short term inconvenience.

We must preserve a woman's right to choose. It is a horrible responsibility but one only she can make. And whatever choice she makes, abortion, adoption, or keeping the child, it is hers to make and no one should tell her it was wrong.

Serious and informed post , though as you would imagine, I strongly disagree with it.

We are dealing with a horrendous situation, one that no one wants to have to deal with, but it is hard to imagine that the solution is the taking of an innocent human life and I one should have the right to control another humans destiny, not even a mother and regardless of how it may affect her.

Life trumps all, emotional, financial etc. nothing is more important than in ocent human life.

This is not meant to be insulting. It is meant to be thought provoking. Those who share your position can only do so by devaluing the life of another distinct human person. It's the same mechanism ism that slaveholders used to justify slaver and the Nazis used to kill Jews. They are not really human or if they are not as human as we are.

That unborn child from the moment of conception is NO different from you or me or Vag except for stage of development. You weren't what you are no as a fetus and the chances are that as you age one day you won't be what you are now. None of that changes your inate humanity.

I value the woman highly, but you are talking about killing the baby. Nextto that all considerations related to the mothersave her life pale in comparison regardless of how very real and weighty they may be.
 


Serious and informed post , though as you would imagine, I strongly disagree with it.

We are dealing with a horrendous situation, one that no one wants to have to deal with, but it is hard to imagine that the solution is the taking of an innocent human life and I one should have the right to control another humans destiny, not even a mother and regardless of how it may affect her.

Life trumps all, emotional, financial etc. nothing is more important than in ocent human life.

This is not meant to be insulting. It is meant to be thought provoking. Those who share your position can only do so by devaluing the life of another distinct human person. It's the same mechanism ism that slaveholders used to justify slaver and the Nazis used to kill Jews. They are not really human or if they are not as human as we are.

That unborn child from the moment of conception is NO different from you or me or Vag except for stage of development. You weren't what you are no as a fetus and the chances are that as you age one day you won't be what you are now. None of that changes your inate humanity.

I value the woman highly, but you are talking about killing the baby. Nextto that all considerations related to the mothersave her life pale in comparison regardless of how very real and weighty they may be.

Life trumps all, emotional, financial etc. nothing is more important than in ocent human life.

Quite a fdeparture from, "It's OK to kill innocent babies and women in war."

You're all over the place pal.
 


Our society recognizes justifiable killing for many reasons.

Yes, devaluing human life was used by the Nazis and justified slavery. But rape and impregnating the women has been a standard of war dating back to the dawn of time. And societies back to the dawn of time have hated and discarded the product of rape.

Every day we 'control other humans' destiny. The simple choice of having a child is completely controlling their destiny. We choose how they dress, how they are educated, and what their medical care is like. We choose what they eat or have access to eat and where they live. This is the right of parents and most resist attempts to create laws that dictate how we raise them. Especially while pregnant, the mother has complete and total control and there are no laws punishing her for whatever she does to the fetus through what she puts into her body.

You think any fetus is too precious to destroy. I think any child is far too precious to bring into the world uncared for, hated, unloved, or abused. And pregnancy, when it is right, is one of the most joyous times in a couple's life and that should not be damaged by a completely unwanted pregnancy. A woman's life should not be derailed and forever altered because of it. Her life trumps that of someone who can't survive without her, and only her, physical body.

This is fully accepted by societies around the world. It is why there is no funeral, no birth certificate, no autopsy, for a miscarriage. It is why the mother is not punished for use of drugs or alcohol or doing other things that can damage the fetus. You might not like it, but that is reality. Do you realize that if there could be some reason here, the ability to end partial birth and late term abortions would improve? That those who have crack babies could be held accountable? Or in cases like the recent one where a full term child was cut from the mother, then there would be no question of what this represented legally. But as long as there is debate over whether a non-viable life must be protected no matter the cost to everyone else, then laws are not going to budge on more sensible discussions. The insanity of wanting this to be a black and white, fit in the boxes situation means in application, in applied law, that there can be no acceptance of change because most people accept the mother's life and body have value and that life is defined more broadly than 'not dead'.
 
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I prefer to believe that all of us live many lives. Our electrical signal that is unique to each of us can never die. Perhaps "it" is our soul. Scientists years ago believed that the electrical current found in between the two hemispheres of the brain was the location of the human soul. If all life on this planet can not leave this planet (really), then where does it go? I will tell you my theory. It stays here and in the realms we cannot see, since humans can only "see" about 10 percent of reality/matter. I tend to think that no life is ever really snuffed out. Some choices are tough and may not be right, but life always finds a way back out of the darkness. There are no innocent humans. Even according to the Bible, we are all born sinners. Hence, we are sinners even before we are born and we will sin over and over and over again. No sin is greater than any other. An innocent life would revert back to pure energy. I have seen it personally that one can even get a beloved dead pet back in another form of pet. Granted, they are just spirits. I think you all argue too much and MFAS, you need to put your money where you "heart" is and adopt our spend a lot of your time making sure that adoption is easier in the U.S. If God is all knowing and children are so perfect, then please go to a DD home and volunteer your time. Let me know how that goes when one of those "sweet" children throws sht on you or strangles you. Watch as some poor child bangs their head all day long and moans. I again say this because not ALL abortions are because a child is unwanted. Many women are older or have health issues. You have heard me go down this song and dance before, so I won't go on and on. Any living thing can procreate. It is nothing special to humans. I do draw the line at a beating heart, but not at the sperm and egg meeting. A fetus that is six weeks old is not a functional human being anymore than a seed is a tree. While that individual "soul" may be there, I believe that "soul" will come back. So, quit worrying. We have lived many, many lives.
 




Unless you have been to war you have no right to use this example.

And unless MFAS has been pregnant, carried & delivered a child by a rapist, he has no right to pontificate on the rights of innocent female victims of rape.
The day he turns up with a vagina and a uterus, I'll shut my mouth.
 


I prefer to believe that all of us live many lives. Our electrical signal that is unique to each of us can never die. Perhaps "it" is our soul. Scientists years ago believed that the electrical current found in between the two hemispheres of the brain was the location of the human soul. If all life on this planet can not leave this planet (really), then where does it go? I will tell you my theory. It stays here and in the realms we cannot see, since humans can only "see" about 10 percent of reality/matter. I tend to think that no life is ever really snuffed out. Some choices are tough and may not be right, but life always finds a way back out of the darkness. There are no innocent humans. Even according to the Bible, we are all born sinners. Hence, we are sinners even before we are born and we will sin over and over and over again. No sin is greater than any other. An innocent life would revert back to pure energy. I have seen it personally that one can even get a beloved dead pet back in another form of pet. Granted, they are just spirits. I think you all argue too much and MFAS, you need to put your money where you "heart" is and adopt our spend a lot of your time making sure that adoption is easier in the U.S. If God is all knowing and children are so perfect, then please go to a DD home and volunteer your time. Let me know how that goes when one of those "sweet" children throws sht on you or strangles you. Watch as some poor child bangs their head all day long and moans. I again say this because not ALL abortions are because a child is unwanted. Many women are older or have health issues. You have heard me go down this song and dance before, so I won't go on and on. Any living thing can procreate. It is nothing special to humans. I do draw the line at a beating heart, but not at the sperm and egg meeting. A fetus that is six weeks old is not a functional human being anymore than a seed is a tree. While that individual "soul" may be there, I believe that "soul" will come back. So, quit worrying. We have lived many, many lives.

Well said and after all, that soul (according to MFAS) gets a free pass to heaven.Now you KNOW if he really believed that he wouldn't be worried. :cool:
 


Life trumps all, emotional, financial etc. nothing is more important than in ocent human life.

Quite a fdeparture from, "It's OK to kill innocent babies and women in war."

You're all over the place pal.

The fact is that I am very consistent. Sadly you just can't follow logic as indicated y your mutilation of the "net" concept. War is vastly different from domestic situations anyway.
 


And unless MFAS has been pregnant, carried & delivered a child by a rapist, he has no right to pontificate on the rights of innocent female victims of rape.
The day he turns up with a vagina and a uterus, I'll shut my mouth.

Like most issues, you dont have a clue on this one. I have every right. Gender does not alter morality or scientific truth.
 




MFAS, you see God as this Police in the Heavens. I see God as the force that created all life, both good and evil. You could not have one without the other. There is no moral police at the end of the rainbow, just a confrontation of the truth and whether your soul is truly repentant for any harm you have caused. That can happen in the second at death in my opinion and until that time, many will not really see themselves anyway. Only in this way can our life energy be converted. I tend think we choose our path based on what our soul would like to experience in each life.
 


I prefer to believe that all of us live many lives. Our electrical signal that is unique to each of us can never die. Perhaps "it" is our soul. Scientists years ago believed that the electrical current found in between the two hemispheres of the brain was the location of the human soul. If all life on this planet can not leave this planet (really), then where does it go? I will tell you my theory. It stays here and in the realms we cannot see, since humans can only "see" about 10 percent of reality/matter. I tend to think that no life is ever really snuffed out. Some choices are tough and may not be right, but life always finds a way back out of the darkness. There are no innocent humans. Even according to the Bible, we are all born sinners. Hence, we are sinners even before we are born and we will sin over and over and over again. No sin is greater than any other. An innocent life would revert back to pure energy. I have seen it personally that one can even get a beloved dead pet back in another form of pet. Granted, they are just spirits. I think you all argue too much and MFAS, you need to put your money where you "heart" is and adopt our spend a lot of your time making sure that adoption is easier in the U.S. If God is all knowing and children are so perfect, then please go to a DD home and volunteer your time. Let me know how that goes when one of those "sweet" children throws sht on you or strangles you. Watch as some poor child bangs their head all day long and moans. I again say this because not ALL abortions are because a child is unwanted. Many women are older or have health issues. You have heard me go down this song and dance before, so I won't go on and on. Any living thing can procreate. It is nothing special to humans. I do draw the line at a beating heart, but not at the sperm and egg meeting. A fetus that is six weeks old is not a functional human being anymore than a seed is a tree. While that individual "soul" may be there, I believe that "soul" will come back. So, quit worrying. We have lived many, many lives.

Personally I dont buy into the rein arnation thing. I believe we are different from animals and that we have souls and are moral agents who will answer to God for our actions and the values and policies we support or don't.

My level of personal charity and what forms it takes has no bearing in this discussion. My thoughts are the same as Mother Theresa's were Want to question her bono fides to address this issue? The fact is you just disagree with me but I don't have to meet a standard that you or anyone else has in order to have the moral authority to make my case.
 


MFAS, you see God as this Police in the Heavens. I see God as the force that created all life, both good and evil. You could not have one without the other. There is no moral police at the end of the rainbow, just a confrontation of the truth and whether your soul is truly repentant for any harm you have caused. That can happen in the second at death in my opinion and until that time, many will not really see themselves anyway. Only in this way can our life energy be converted. I tend think we choose our path based on what our soul would like to experience in each life.

My stance is based on the Bible which is at odds with most of what you e stated.

God is love and mercy but also justice. He made us free moral agents and will demand an accounting from us. Save for the grace available in Christ we are all doomed.
 


I prefer to believe that all of us live many lives. Our electrical signal that is unique to each of us can never die. Perhaps "it" is our soul. Scientists years ago believed that the electrical current found in between the two hemispheres of the brain was the location of the human soul. If all life on this planet can not leave this planet (really), then where does it go? I will tell you my theory. It stays here and in the realms we cannot see, since humans can only "see" about 10 percent of reality/matter. I tend to think that no life is ever really snuffed out. Some choices are tough and may not be right, but life always finds a way back out of the darkness. There are no innocent humans. Even according to the Bible, we are all born sinners. Hence, we are sinners even before we are born and we will sin over and over and over again. No sin is greater than any other. An innocent life would revert back to pure energy. I have seen it personally that one can even get a beloved dead pet back in another form of pet. Granted, they are just spirits. I think you all argue too much and MFAS, you need to put your money where you "heart" is and adopt our spend a lot of your time making sure that adoption is easier in the U.S. If God is all knowing and children are so perfect, then please go to a DD home and volunteer your time. Let me know how that goes when one of those "sweet" children throws sht on you or strangles you. Watch as some poor child bangs their head all day long and moans. I again say this because not ALL abortions are because a child is unwanted. Many women are older or have health issues. You have heard me go down this song and dance before, so I won't go on and on. Any living thing can procreate. It is nothing special to humans. I do draw the line at a beating heart, but not at the sperm and egg meeting. A fetus that is six weeks old is not a functional human being anymore than a seed is a tree. While that individual "soul" may be there, I believe that "soul" will come back. So, quit worrying. We have lived many, many lives.

Great post GG. I don't agree 100% but get the gist, I think, of what you are saying. BTW, a heartbeat can be detected around week 5 or 6, which is where you say you draw the line. Then your next statement validates that the child is certainly not viable at this point.

What is DD?

Arguing is good for all of us.
 


Great post GG. I don't agree 100% but get the gist, I think, of what you are saying. BTW, a heartbeat can be detected around week 5 or 6, which is where you say you draw the line. Then your next statement validates that the child is certainly not viable at this point.

What is DD?

Arguing is good for all of us.

It truly was another great post. I think DD is Developmental Disabilities Home. This strengthens the case. The spawn of a rapist could easily have these disabilities from 1) a genetic standpoint and 2) a challenged upbringing.
The rapee doesn't need this and neither does society. From a NET standpoint, the positive of aborting outweighs the negative.

Interesting take on heartbeat starting at 5 or 6 weeks. If not mistaken when you're heart is no longer beating you are no longer alive. Conversly, if a heart is not yet beating, life has not yet occured.

Arguing is good when each person realizes no one has the certified perfect answer, we all have opinions. As dear as we hold each of our opinions by exchanging we learn about each other and NO one's opinion is the 'End of Story'. They are all just educated guesses/opinions.