3i Implants Failing for no good reason

[Anonymous]

Bro, this is so bogus. Ask ANY Astra docs about bone maintenance and soft tissue response short and long term with that system and you won't find a single complaint. You are waging a war that is not necessary. I have not heard a single surgeon say they had any complications with system or any failures. Now ask 3i guys and pour yourself a cup of coffee because they are gonna go off about all of their issues. Here's some more food for thought, take a look at Zipperich studies, he's got another one about to be published and um results are gonna be bit different from these.

No doubt Astra is a nice implant, for what it is, a 2 stage implant. No primary stability. Also, if there's smoke, there's fire. Institutions as well as studies that are peered review don't take place just for the fun of it. Obviously, the industry recognized there's an issue that needed further investigation, that issue is called the Seal test.

I'm not saying Astra's are going to fail all the time, however for today's patient demand for immediate aesthetics, that will also last long term, Astra doesn't compete. Ask any Astra user if they had to do an immediate, would they even consider Astra? But the long term effect of the leakage proven for connical connections will be a topic of discussion going forward. Get used to it, unfortunately.

 

[Anonymous]

No doubt Astra is a nice implant, for what it is, a 2 stage implant. No primary stability. Also, if there's smoke, there's fire. Institutions as well as studies that are peered review don't take place just for the fun of it. Obviously, the industry recognized there's an issue that needed further investigation, that issue is called the Seal test.

I'm not saying Astra's are going to fail all the time, however for today's patient demand for immediate aesthetics, that will also last long term, Astra doesn't compete. Ask any Astra user if they had to do an immediate, would they even consider Astra? But the long term effect of the leakage proven for connical connections will be a topic of discussion going forward. Get used to it, unfortunately.

This is complete garbage, while yes an Astra does not have as much insertional torque as other implant systems to call it a two stage implant is retarded. Surgeons absolutely do single stage almost exclusively with astra if that is within their comfort zone and people do immediate provizionalization with frequency and no complications. If you want to go study for study Astra can do this ALL day. No comeback on Zipprich study huh??? What is interesting about that study is that it was done in 2007 and the two implants with by far and away least amount of micromovement were...............Astra and Ankylos (2007 was well before merger).

 

[Anonymous]

This is complete garbage, while yes an Astra does not have as much insertional torque as other implant systems to call it a two stage implant is retarded. Surgeons absolutely do single stage almost exclusively with astra if that is within their comfort zone and people do immediate provizionalization with frequency and no complications. If you want to go study for study Astra can do this ALL day. No comeback on Zipprich study huh??? What is interesting about that study is that it was done in 2007 and the two implants with by far and away least amount of micromovement were...............Astra and Ankylos (2007 was well before merger).

OK everyone... Let's chime in on a simple question... Which implant has one of the worst primary stability in the industry?

If you were a surgeon, and had to do an immediate provisional placement, would Astra be your first choice vs any other premium implant?

Oh yeah, the anklos system. So long as the abutment don't break off at the neck of the implant, you might be ok. But bottom line is that the latest studies (meaning this year, not 6 going onto 7 years ago) are indicating otherwise. It's like when Nobel said 7 years ago that there surface is god's gift to implants, until they started experiencing the peri issues.

 

[Anonymous]

OK everyone... Let's chime in on a simple question... Which implant has one of the worst primary stability in the industry?

If you were a surgeon, and had to do an immediate provisional placement, would Astra be your first choice vs any other premium implant?

Oh yeah, the anklos system. So long as the abutment don't break off at the neck of the implant, you might be ok. But bottom line is that the latest studies (meaning this year, not 6 going onto 7 years ago) are indicating otherwise. It's like when Nobel said 7 years ago that there surface is god's gift to implants, until they started experiencing the peri issues.

Ok everyone.......let's chime in on a simpler question. If you were a surgeon and you absolutely, positively had to choose an implant that you were sure would integrate would it be a 3i? Would it be a Certain? Would it be an NT, Would it be an enhanced NT? Would it be a Prevail? Would it be a Straight Prevail? Would it be a Nanotite? Would it be an Osseotite2? Would it be a T3? Hahaha this is too much fun. If your connection was soooooo good, why have you changed designs half a dozen times in the last 6 or 7 years. You HAVE ZERO credibility scientifically anymore. Listen Bro, I have NEVER lost a surgeon due to implant failures? How many have you lost? I got guys that do immediates, single stage almost exclusively. I love you guys, Primary Stability blah, blah, blah (it is touchy, feely nonsense). My implants are osseointegrated after 8 weeks, period. Aesthetically, you can't touch our johnson. Astra has not changed hardly a thing about its implant in 25 years, so if you are trying to claim we have no long term data, you are wrong, dead wrong. Seal me, seal you!!

 

[Anonymous]

Ok everyone.......let's chime in on a simpler question. If you were a surgeon and you absolutely, positively had to choose an implant that you were sure would integrate would it be a 3i? Would it be a Certain? Would it be an NT, Would it be an enhanced NT? Would it be a Prevail? Would it be a Straight Prevail? Would it be a Nanotite? Would it be an Osseotite2? Would it be a T3? Hahaha this is too much fun. If your connection was soooooo good, why have you changed designs half a dozen times in the last 6 or 7 years. You HAVE ZERO credibility scientifically anymore. Listen Bro, I have NEVER lost a surgeon due to implant failures? How many have you lost? I got guys that do immediates, single stage almost exclusively. I love you guys, Primary Stability blah, blah, blah (it is touchy, feely nonsense). My implants are osseointegrated after 8 weeks, period. Aesthetically, you can't touch our johnson. Astra has not changed hardly a thing about its implant in 25 years, so if you are trying to claim we have no long term data, you are wrong, dead wrong. Seal me, seal you!!

You didn't answer the question... But's that was to be expected because that's how Astra Sales peeps play the game. Rather than rebutt using the LATEST independent literatures or science, you cry out like the kid on the playground threatening to take his ball with him.

Seriously, put down the smoking device and ask yourself to look into the mirror.

I will agree, maybe we have too much in our bag to offer. However, those options helps me sell to those who have different opinions of what an ideal implant are to them. For instance, there are still those that prefer a polished collar (god knows why), I got that.

There are those that prefer platform switched built in (I got that).

There are those that prefer to go straight to cad-cam without having to remove a healing abutment (ahem, you guessed it).

Also, there are those who prefer higher primary stability for immediates, especially for full arch (and yes, you guessed it, I got that)

My opinion, I evaluate my market, and then I know what to offer. It's simple. I don't have to mention every single implant we have to a prospective surgeon, just the ones I know that he would like to learn more of.

For instance, there are those Straumman and Astra users that prefer a rougher surface implant. T3 answers the call, plus with better a better connection that has been proven in Today's studies, not 7 years ago. Yeah, I got that too now.

Quick story, I had a Straumann rep who didn't do his homework trying to sell a loyal specialist on their surface, and tried to convince them that 3i is too smooth and thus leads to failure in poor quality bone conditions. According to the specialist, his partner tossed him a T3 sitting on his desk. The message was; and I'm para-phrasing here; try learning what's new in the industry, especially your competition which I am loyal to, before bashing.

 

[Anonymous]

You sound like the over-priced version of ID. Do you sell watches from the inside of your raincoat, as well?

I bet you use your "quick story" as your punch line to try to close deals. Very tiring.

 

[Anonymous]

You didn't answer the question... But's that was to be expected because that's how Astra Sales peeps play the game. Rather than rebutt using the LATEST independent literatures or science, you cry out like the kid on the playground threatening to take his ball with him.

Seriously, put down the smoking device and ask yourself to look into the mirror.

I will agree, maybe we have too much in our bag to offer. However, those options helps me sell to those who have different opinions of what an ideal implant are to them. For instance, there are still those that prefer a polished collar (god knows why), I got that.

There are those that prefer platform switched built in (I got that).

There are those that prefer to go straight to cad-cam without having to remove a healing abutment (ahem, you guessed it).

Also, there are those who prefer higher primary stability for immediates, especially for full arch (and yes, you guessed it, I got that)

My opinion, I evaluate my market, and then I know what to offer. It's simple. I don't have to mention every single implant we have to a prospective surgeon, just the ones I know that he would like to learn more of.

For instance, there are those Straumman and Astra users that prefer a rougher surface implant. T3 answers the call, plus with better a better connection that has been proven in Today's studies, not 7 years ago. Yeah, I got that too now.

Quick story, I had a Straumann rep who didn't do his homework trying to sell a loyal specialist on their surface, and tried to convince them that 3i is too smooth and thus leads to failure in poor quality bone conditions. According to the specialist, his partner tossed him a T3 sitting on his desk. The message was; and I'm para-phrasing here; try learning what's new in the industry, especially your competition which I am loyal to, before bashing.

Yawn........how many failed implants you pick up that day?? I picked one up the other day. First one in months, surgeon blamed himself. Beauty of using a system that works. I wish I had any 3i in my territory. Your products have prevented you from ever regaining any business out here. I have NEVER had one surgeon say he has had problems with our system or a surgeon who didnt use say anything megative either. Suck on that 3i guu next time some perio or oms tells you your system is garbage. Sure it happens at least once a week.

 

[Anonymous]

Yawn........how many failed implants you pick up that day?? I picked one up the other day. First one in months, surgeon blamed himself. Beauty of using a system that works. I wish I had any 3i in my territory. Your products have prevented you from ever regaining any business out here. I have NEVER had one surgeon say he has had problems with our system or a surgeon who didnt use say anything megative either. Suck on that 3i guu next time some perio or oms tells you your system is garbage. Sure it happens at least once a week.

How did this drunken bastard join the party?

Put it this way, anyone that has a case which require immediates full arch, or even a #9, won't even bother looking your way. Oh, and by the way, guess what patient expectations are when it comes to implants? Yeah, suck on that lime while u ponder on a rebuttal, or enjoy the drink and admit I'm right. It's ok.

 

[Anonymous]

How did this drunken bastard join the party?

Put it this way, anyone that has a case which require immediates full arch, or even a #9, won't even bother looking your way. Oh, and by the way, guess what patient expectations are when it comes to implants? Yeah, suck on that lime while u ponder on a rebuttal, or enjoy the drink and admit I'm right. It's ok.

You seem to be so into studies, there are sooooo many on immediate loading with Astra. You are exactly like your Straumann rep that came in throwing dirt on the wall unnecessarily. You ever come into my guys offices and they will laugh at you. We SHINE in esthetic zone dude, glow if you will. You want some reading info I can send you more studies than you know what to do with. Don't worry about full arches as well, I got that too now and it is great. Like I said, there are sooooo many reasons we have kicked you out of third with a LARGE boot. You can spout all you want but why are you not number three anymore and we are. You are nowhere near us anymore and if you come back with Atlantis that is fine because I sell that too, and I FRICKING LOVE IT! Nobody can touch it right now. It is bar none best abutment out there. I don't get to see it too much on 3i because like I said there is none in my territory but it fits oh so nice on Nobel and let me throw this at you, we do more custom abutments on Strauamann implants than Straumann itself does. Gonna keep hammering this message home to you. My products work now, have always worked and are perceived as best in class in numerous categories. It is a joy to sell here

 

[Anonymous]

You seem to be so into studies, there are sooooo many on immediate loading with Astra. You are exactly like your Straumann rep that came in throwing dirt on the wall unnecessarily. You ever come into my guys offices and they will laugh at you. We SHINE in esthetic zone dude, glow if you will. You want some reading info I can send you more studies than you know what to do with. Don't worry about full arches as well, I got that too now and it is great. Like I said, there are sooooo many reasons we have kicked you out of third with a LARGE boot. You can spout all you want but why are you not number three anymore and we are. You are nowhere near us anymore and if you come back with Atlantis that is fine because I sell that too, and I FRICKING LOVE IT! Nobody can touch it right now. It is bar none best abutment out there. I don't get to see it too much on 3i because like I said there is none in my territory but it fits oh so nice on Nobel and let me throw this at you, we do more custom abutments on Strauamann implants than Straumann itself does. Gonna keep hammering this message home to you. My products work now, have always worked and are perceived as best in class in numerous categories. It is a joy to sell here

Ok lets play this game... Im one of the GI Joe's and ur that little kid watching me at the tail end of the cartoon. You know the part, where I explain something to you that you had no knowledge of.

Did you know that an award was presented at the ISPRD in Boston on a study of 3rd party abutments. (ahem) Atlantis mainly with Glidewell. Glidewell came in last and Atlantis was just as bad on having the worst seal integrity in the Industry!!!

SO its your cue to say "wow, now I know"....

And then I say "knowing..." eh, I think we know hoe this ends.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok lets play this game... Im one of the GI Joe's and ur that little kid watching me at the tail end of the cartoon. You know the part, where I explain something to you that you had no knowledge of.

Did you know that an award was presented at the ISPRD in Boston on a study of 3rd party abutments. (ahem) Atlantis mainly with Glidewell. Glidewell came in last and Atlantis was just as bad on having the worst seal integrity in the Industry!!!

SO its your cue to say "wow, now I know"....

And then I say "knowing..." eh, I think we know hoe this ends.

Geeze dude, again our products work great. Atlantis is Loved by my docs, all of them. Again, try and create a problem where none exists. This must be the new 3i strategy. Talk about everyone else because we have never been able to figure out our own issues. Just had lunch with a Straumann guy today who wants to switch because his referrals are asking for Astra with Atlantis. I guess he hasn't heard of Encode yet........oh yeah there is none here. Another great year I am having......

 

[Anonymous]

Geeze dude, again our products work great. Atlantis is Loved by my docs, all of them. Again, try and create a problem where none exists. This must be the new 3i strategy. Talk about everyone else because we have never been able to figure out our own issues. Just had lunch with a Straumann guy today who wants to switch because his referrals are asking for Astra with Atlantis. I guess he hasn't heard of Encode yet........oh yeah there is none here. Another great year I am having......

Drunk bastard trying comedy now.

1) A Straumann rep looking to 'switch' to Astra? Child please. First, there's the non-compete issue (if it applies). To boot, Straumann is a strong company. If he/she can't make it happen against Astra, I wouldn't even blink at that rep if I was the hiring manager.

2) Do you realize that most GP's have no idea that they are getting back an Atlantis abutment?

As for the seal test, the truth does hurt. And yes, 3i has figured out something that the industry began to realize. It's not always about surface, it's also connection. IF as an implant company who have a strong mix of both, then you are in a good position to take off. The reality is, 3i's seal has been PROVEN and TESTED by INDEPENDENT STUDIES and has been PEERED REVIEWED as well as presented an AWARD by the ISPRD.

Time's are changing my friends. I will get off my soap box for now. Enjoy the rest of your summer. Feel free to feel like the big man and post your final say here. I will come back sometime after the fall to review what has been presented during the Fall education season and any changes in the market resulting from what will be introduced.

 

[Anonymous]

Drunk bastard trying comedy now.


As for the seal test, the truth does hurt. And yes, 3i has figured out something that the industry began to realize. It's not always about surface, it's also connection. IF as an implant company who have a strong mix of both, then you are in a good position to take off. The reality is, 3i's seal has been PROVEN and TESTED by INDEPENDENT STUDIES and has been PEERED REVIEWED as well as presented an AWARD by the ISPRD.


Child please. Are you done drinking your corporate Kool-Aid? Have a look at your PEERED REVIEWED (did you graduate high school?) studies. They are all written by paid employees and paid speakers. Not one INDEPENDENT STUDY that I could find. That's because nobody cares about 3I anymore. And you got an AWARD by ISPRD? Really? What? Where? I might add- another organization you PAID MONEY to.

You are a non-entity. Nobody cares.

 

[Anonymous]

So some group discovered that Atlantis abutments can't give a precise seal on certain implants like Nobel that have extremely wide manufacturing tolerances? Big shocker.

 

[Anonymous]

Drunk bastard trying comedy now.

1) A Straumann rep looking to 'switch' to Astra? Child please. First, there's the non-compete issue (if it applies). To boot, Straumann is a strong company. If he/she can't make it happen against Astra, I wouldn't even blink at that rep if I was the hiring manager.

2) Do you realize that most GP's have no idea that they are getting back an Atlantis abutment?

As for the seal test, the truth does hurt. And yes, 3i has figured out something that the industry began to realize. It's not always about surface, it's also connection. IF as an implant company who have a strong mix of both, then you are in a good position to take off. The reality is, 3i's seal has been PROVEN and TESTED by INDEPENDENT STUDIES and has been PEERED REVIEWED as well as presented an AWARD by the ISPRD.

Time's are changing my friends. I will get off my soap box for now. Enjoy the rest of your summer. Feel free to feel like the big man and post your final say here. I will come back sometime after the fall to review what has been presented during the Fall education season and any changes in the market resulting from what will be introduced.

So you expect me to believe that you can understand a scientific study when you can't understand a couple of straightforward paragraphs? I said a Straumann surgeon switched over to Astra the other day. Is that clear enough for you? What do you say when a surgeon is sitting down with you and he says, "you know what sparky, you guys claimed that Nanotite was going to be a game changer, what happened? I had more failures with those implants with that system than any other? Did you guys ever figure it out? Oh, but we have Seal Studies now Dr.! Really, so your connection has changed then huh? Ummm, no......

 

[Anonymous]

So you expect me to believe that you can understand a scientific study when you can't understand a couple of straightforward paragraphs? I said a Straumann surgeon switched over to Astra the other day. Is that clear enough for you? What do you say when a surgeon is sitting down with you and he says, "you know what sparky, you guys claimed that Nanotite was going to be a game changer, what happened? I had more failures with those implants with that system than any other? Did you guys ever figure it out? Oh, but we have Seal Studies now Dr.! Really, so your connection has changed then huh? Ummm, no......

So I bet you are a former 3i guy who couldn't hack it when most of the us sales reps who had issues were able to ride the storm 7-10 years ago. Then u go out and say, "hey, I worked for those guys, and let me tell you about my experience with nanotite." Right? C'mon, admit it.

Disgruntled is the key word here. Wake up. A good rep in any industry knows how to maintain accounts, knows how to acquire business, and when needed, knows how to do damage control till the problem is fixed.

Nano my disgruntled friend has served my area very well. Continue selling your two stage solution with the Astra abutments. Oh, by the way, that specialist is going to figure out real quick the primary stability on those Astras compared to the Straumann system are inferior, and will scare him right back. Guaranteed. Also, I bet you can't believe you're back in the implant game.

 

[Anonymous]

So I bet you are a former 3i guy who couldn't hack it when most of the us sales reps who had issues were able to ride the storm 7-10 years ago. Then u go out and say, "hey, I worked for those guys, and let me tell you about my experience with nanotite." Right? C'mon, admit it.

Disgruntled is the key word here. Wake up. A good rep in any industry knows how to maintain accounts, knows how to acquire business, and when needed, knows how to do damage control till the problem is fixed.

Nano my disgruntled friend has served my area very well. Continue selling your two stage solution with the Astra abutments. Oh, by the way, that specialist is going to figure out real quick the primary stability on those Astras compared to the Straumann system are inferior, and will scare him right back. Guaranteed. Also, I bet you can't believe you're back in the implant game.

Haha! There you go with your 2 stage nonsense. Let me explain something to you (you may want to read over and over until it makes sense), Astra is not a two stage implant like you keep saying. You however just made my point, "most of the sales reps who had issues"??? Really, you don't think specialists laugh at you guys now. Yes, those failures were REAL, the whole industry saw it. Your company still has not been able to explain why there were so many failures with. What is sad is that you are still with that POS company. You guys WERE a player in the industry. Now you are a nano-player no. You like what I did there? You are sooooo right about the Perio I just got from Straumann, I am sure once the cat is out of the bag he will go back. I mean all the other guys that came on board have gone back running for their lives. You do realize that Astra came from literally nowhere seven years ago to third with a vengeance and literally a few percentage points from number one don't you? I guess our "two-stage" implant is resonating. Like I said buddy, I have NEVER lost a surgeon due to product issues with Astra. Can you say the same? I am willing to bet a ton of money that the answer is no?
I can't wait for you to go into an Astra office and say, "Dr. do you ever single stage, immediate load with Astra? How does it make you feel?" His response will be "Yes and yes. I feel pretty good about placing an implant system that has NEVER had performance issues? Wait are you the PreFail, Certain to Fail guy??? Was your company the one where most of the reps had to navigate through those issues?"

You will leave with your Nano-johnson in tow...............

 

[Anonymous]

Haha! There you go with your 2 stage nonsense. Let me explain something to you (you may want to read over and over until it makes sense), Astra is not a two stage implant like you keep saying. You however just made my point, "most of the sales reps who had issues"??? Really, you don't think specialists laugh at you guys now. Yes, those failures were REAL, the whole industry saw it. Your company still has not been able to explain why there were so many failures with. What is sad is that you are still with that POS company. You guys WERE a player in the industry. Now you are a nano-player no. You like what I did there? You are sooooo right about the Perio I just got from Straumann, I am sure once the cat is out of the bag he will go back. I mean all the other guys that came on board have gone back running for their lives. You do realize that Astra came from literally nowhere seven years ago to third with a vengeance and literally a few percentage points from number one don't you? I guess our "two-stage" implant is resonating. Like I said buddy, I have NEVER lost a surgeon due to product issues with Astra. Can you say the same? I am willing to bet a ton of money that the answer is no?
I can't wait for you to go into an Astra office and say, "Dr. do you ever single stage, immediate load with Astra? How does it make you feel?" His response will be "Yes and yes. I feel pretty good about placing an implant system that has NEVER had performance issues? Wait are you the PreFail, Certain to Fail guy??? Was your company the one where most of the reps had to navigate through those issues?"

You will leave with your Nano-johnson in tow...............

Just met with a perio in my area. He had a saw dust mandible which the local Astra rep used as a demo to place an implant.

He showed it to me. I said, hey lets try again. My implant vs there's and let's see which one has the best torque value. The torque wrench didn't even go past 30. Ours, lets say it was closer to 90. Enough hype talk. The industry knows. It's not the go to implant for immediates or on occasion one-stage.

 

[Anonymous]

I went to spit my gum out the other day and my 3i implant shot out of my mouth...BBBHHAAA!

 

[Anonymous]

Who is running this shit show now since they have gone through 3 presidents 3 vice presidents three vp of sales and 3 marketing vps in the last four years?