It's amazing how Forest's model still survives to this day. I don't wish ill on people but when I left there I could not help but think these poor bastards it'll be a blood bath one day but most of them were too stupid to see the writing on the wall. Fast forward and every pharma company has abandoned that model, Actavist is buying Forest and that'll be the last of this idiotic way of approaching pharma sales marketing. Some how Forest "wins" the takeover and this terrible system still exists to this day. It's amazing and sad.
It's amazing how Forest's model still survives to this day. I don't wish ill on people but when I left there I could not help but think these poor bastards it'll be a blood bath one day but most of them were too stupid to see the writing on the wall. Fast forward and every pharma company has abandoned that model, Actavist is buying Forest and that'll be the last of this idiotic way of approaching pharma sales marketing. Some how Forest "wins" the takeover and this terrible system still exists to this day. It's amazing and sad.
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You can't sample breast implants to PCPs??? Would like to see how that will work.
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Agree with above poster. Take all of your experience, territory and business knowlwedge along with one shred of logic and just throw it out the window. You bring up solid insight, however there is a huge disconnect between the leadership team and reality in specialty divisions.
One never knows how it will be impacted or implemented...IF the deal actually goes through.
How do you legacy Actavis folks deal with this? Do you guys have RDs, VPs for each specialty business unit or is it all just a mess under Jerry Lynch? I could not stand Forest when I was there.
How are the specialty divisions set up with you guys? Do you still call on high Rxing PCPs? What products does each division have?
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How do you legacy Actavis folks deal with this? Do you guys have RDs, VPs for each specialty business unit or is it all just a mess under Jerry Lynch? I could not stand Forest when I was there.
How are the specialty divisions set up with you guys? Do you still call on high Rxing PCPs? What products does each division have?
Legacy Actavis reps are trying to fly under the radar and are interviewing like crazy to get out of here. At the new product training meeting in September, over half of the Legacy Actavis reps in our room admitted to interviewing and trying to get out.
There are RDs for each specialty unit and some are better than others.
Womens Health is by far the best division and seems to be the one least affected by Forest changes and is still a true specialty group. Derm is still true specialty also.
CPU (Cardio-Pulm-Uro) is a clusterF**k. Both PCP and Specialty call points.
GI was dissolved into Forest Specialty and the hospital rep positions were also dissolved into ISF.
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Legacy Actavis reps are trying to fly under the radar and are interviewing like crazy to get out of here. At the new product training meeting in September, over half of the Legacy Actavis reps in our room admitted to interviewing and trying to get out.
There are RDs for each specialty unit and some are better than others.
Womens Health is by far the best division and seems to be the one least affected by Forest changes and is still a true specialty group. Derm is still true specialty also.
CPU (Cardio-Pulm-Uro) is a clusterF**k. Both PCP and Specialty call points.
GI was dissolved into Forest Specialty and the hospital rep positions were also dissolved into ISF.
What about Neuro? How is that run
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What about Neuro? How is that run
Pod system. "Specialty" Neuro team and overlapping PCP reps that still call on specialists too and also have the same drugs neuro carries.
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Pod system. "Specialty" Neuro team and overlapping PCP reps that still call on specialists too and also have the same drugs neuro carries.
How many in Pod.....Do they call on more psych or Neuro?
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What about your Strategic Account Specialists? They seem to be more account based selling kind of like Allergan, Neuro, Uro, & Retina. What products do they represent and has Forest ruined that team as well?
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Urologists that are "hospital-owned" inject Botox in their OR (hospital / ASC). This product can't be dumped in a POD bag. It's not about signatures. It is an actual procedure.
The Plastic (breast) reps are also in the OR. Probably sold off if Actavis buys Allergan.
You are thinking too highly of yourself. You too had bo experience at some point. Its not that difficult.
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It'll be strange then to see how this goes. . . "Exuse me Mr. Neurologist will use Botox first line for all of your Chronic Migraine, Cervical Dystonia, and Upper Limb Spactisity patients?"
"I don't inject or do the procedure for the 20th time, I refer to the big Neurology group down the road"?
"Ok will you sign for me"
"you're going to give me Botox samples, even though I don't inject"
"No I just need a signature, we don't sample Botox"
Seriously you can't approach this the same way not only will it be annoying it'll be weird.
Seriously!!!???!! Do you really think that any successful pharma rep "sells" with this technique? I agree with the AP, your head is too big for your body, bobble head. Get over yourself.
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Seriously!!!???!! Do you really think that any successful pharma rep "sells" with this technique? I agree with the AP, your head is too big for your body, bobble head. Get over yourself.
Sorry I'm not trying to be arrogant, and my above example was more of mockery of the Forest/traditional Big pharma approach, I understand most of you don't go into offices talking like that but that's basically how all of us at one point or another were trained in our careers.
My point is, as well as the other person who discussed the site of service for the Urology injections, is the selling process and approach is much different. There are many other factors that need to be considered it's just not a "message" or "relationship".
The training can not be dummied down the way Rx training can be nor would it be a good idea to quickly cross train all of the Forest reps on Botox because "Forest runs the show now". Your senior management knows less about how to sell Botox than any of us do and putting it into the same bucket as RX pills will be a painfully obvious mistake right off the bat. It'll be easier to train Allergan on the Forest products. The Namenda/Aricept Combo pill and the SSRI and SNRI pills you guys sell are easy to train and easy to pick up. The SSRI has less sexual side effects than all of the others, and if you want a noraepernepherine effect use our other pill and well for all of your patients that are on an ACHL inhibitor and Namenda just use our new combo pill so it's easier for patients that already suffer from memory loss. Those products can be dumbed down. I know there is a bit more to it but I've sold those sorts of drugs before that's basically the message other than paying off speakers.
Most of us at Allergan that sell Botox worked hard to escaped companies like Forest to get into this sort highly specialized selling job in which we got paid well, treated well, had no signature requirements, little micro management, and no pod BS, but now there is a good chance it's all going to be taken away from us because for some bizarre reason the Forest management, who have not adapted to healthcare in 2014, still run the show at Actavis.
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Do you have ANY clue about how to train a physician to use Botox in the OR or in-office for bladders?
Do you know anything about hospital P&T committees and the medical device approval process?
Do you know anything about in-servicing the OR staff on the equipment needed to inject Botox in the OR?
Do you know how to handle an appeals process when the physician in not paid correctly by Medicare?
Do you know how to speak with an Administrator who has not paid their Botox bill and is not longer able to purchase Botox for their upcoming in-office bladder cases?
Do you know anything about needles and why a certain needle is better for bladder injections?
Do you know anything about Specialty pharmacy shipments to physicians?
How about handling pharmacy managers who want to wait until the week of the case to order product?
Do you know anything about hospital P&T committees and the medical device approval process?
Do you know anything about in-servicing the OR staff on the equipment needed to inject Botox in the OR?
Do you know how to handle an appeals process when the physician in not paid correctly by Medicare?
Do you know how to speak with an Administrator who has not paid their Botox bill and is not longer able to purchase Botox for their upcoming in-office bladder cases?
Do you know anything about needles and why a certain needle is better for bladder injections?
Do you know anything about Specialty pharmacy shipments to physicians?
How about handling pharmacy managers who want to wait until the week of the case to order product?
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Your probably right and as someone that worked at Forest I understand how terrible of a culture it is and how sadly outdated it is, but you need to understand you don't sell Botox for any of it's indications the way you sell an Rx. . . "its not doc use Botox first line for your next 10 patients" and sign here, it's an in-office medical procedure closer to a med device sell in some ways. Our speaker programs are training programs to teach MDs how to inject and do the procedure. Doctors have to purchase the product from Allergan and then bill out for the drug and procedure to get reimbursed. It's a money maker for them. It's typically used when RX meds fail. There are no samples as it's a biologic agent that needs to be refrigerated. It's not even close to Linzess or even any of the legacy Actavis specialty products. You can't measure your Botox sales force on how many signatures they got the way you can with Linzess. The same holds true with Allergan's Retina injectable Ozurdex.
Allergan Eyecare on the other hand is run a lot like Forest w/ overlapping pods and signature requirements because the products are mature with samples.
This is a much bigger pill for Actavis to swallow Commercially and from and R&D perspective. Allergan is a far superior company than Actavis in terms of R&D and as a commercial organization so I don't know how they're going to integrate us without destroying the value of their investment, that's why we're running from Valeant. And again outside of eyecare and maybe Derm none of our products are sampled. They are purchased and reimbursed and sold to true specialist ones who do interventional procedures not just Rx.
....If it is so hard to learn how to administer and buy and bill how come so many dentists, ophthalmologists NURPs and many other specialties do Botox?
The speaker programs are mostly to support the best customers. Just sayin'...
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....If it is so hard to learn how to administer and buy and bill how come so many dentists, ophthalmologists NURPs and many other specialties do Botox?
The speaker programs are mostly to support the best customers. Just sayin'...
Dentists do it for TMJ or pain which is off label, if it was on-label a shit load more would. A lot of Dentists use it cosmetically as well and our cosmetic team does call on some of those folks but those offices are not going to generate the same amount as a plastic or derm so they're not a focus.
Ophthalmologists use if for a condition call blephoarspasam that is an orphan indication and the sales are tiny. If you only inject one or two patients a year its a lot different than offices that do over 100 for 4 different indications.
Again these are the nuance's of the market that make it different than traditional RX.
Most other specialists that do it only inject a small volume of patients and a lot of it is off label. If it was on-label and they had commercial support the number of injectors would be higher and they would need the support because injecting 50 patients is different than injecting two.
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Dentists do it for TMJ or pain which is off label, if it was on-label a shit load more would. A lot of Dentists use it cosmetically as well and our cosmetic team does call on some of those folks but those offices are not going to generate the same amount as a plastic or derm so they're not a focus.
Ophthalmologists use if for a condition call blephoarspasam that is an orphan indication and the sales are tiny. If you only inject one or two patients a year its a lot different than offices that do over 100 for 4 different indications.
Again these are the nuance's of the market that make it different than traditional RX.
Most other specialists that do it only inject a small volume of patients and a lot of it is off label. If it was on-label and they had commercial support the number of injectors would be higher and they would need the support because injecting 50 patients is different than injecting two.
Nice post you forgot that cosmetic use is a cash business and is purchased but not billed and reimbursed, so easier on the front end but more device like in selling and account management approach.
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Do you have ANY clue about how to train a physician to use Botox in the OR or in-office for bladders?
Do you know anything about hospital P&T committees and the medical device approval process?
Do you know anything about in-servicing the OR staff on the equipment needed to inject Botox in the OR?
Do you know how to handle an appeals process when the physician in not paid correctly by Medicare?
Do you know how to speak with an Administrator who has not paid their Botox bill and is not longer able to purchase Botox for their upcoming in-office bladder cases?
Do you know anything about needles and why a certain needle is better for bladder injections?
Do you know anything about Specialty pharmacy shipments to physicians?
How about handling pharmacy managers who want to wait until the week of the case to order product?
Like you did, we will learn.
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Yea I don't think you get it though, while you can be cheap and give us roommates and all of that Forest crap the selling model for medical procedures is different than Rx.
The pod, reach frequency, used car salesman tough outdated can still be used with Rx drugs but it can not be used for devices or Botox which is an office based procedure. Gi drugs and SSRi's can be used by anyone not just specialists this is not the case with Botox therapeutic.
I don't think you guys understand this. Now I now how stupid the people at Forest labs are but it will be strange to sell our products the way you do your Rx Drugs. Doctors will not understand what you are saying to them. You don't get "signatures" for breast implants or Botox, or Juviderm.
Oh PCP reps will end up with Botox. They already stated on a conference call that they are exploring the PCP indications including chronic migraines. My bet is that CNS, Derm, and the PCP reps that overlap CNS will have Botox.
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Oh PCP reps will end up with Botox. They already stated on a conference call that they are exploring the PCP indications including chronic migraines. My bet is that CNS, Derm, and the PCP reps that overlap CNS will have Botox.
Jesus Christ...PCPs don't see these patients by the time they get to the point of Botox they've already been referred to Neuro. This will be a total waste of money and time.
Allergan already has Neuro reps that sell Botox.
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I wonder if Botox will be free through our health insurance. CR's team will all look like Joan Rivers from trying to game the bonus plan.
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Jesus Christ...PCPs don't see these patients by the time they get to the point of Botox they've already been referred to Neuro. This will be a total waste of money and time.
Allergan already has Neuro reps that sell Botox.
Allergan may already have neuro reps trained on Botox, but heres what will likely happen:
Our great Actavis Leadership will make an appliance at your next National or POA Mtg. They will sit on the stage and tell you minimal cuts and everyone in the room has nothing to worry about.
Then a month before the alignment, they will drop the bomb that Legacy CNS and Derm will get Botox bc they already have so many neuro products and its just easier to train the existing force. but don't worry, they will promise to fill you guys in the vacant territories in those divisions.
I really feel for all you guys. These people are dirty, filthy and ruthless.