How could you be doing worse than Levemir? Hmmmm--Levemir will make $500 million this year in the US. Plus, Levemir's share is growing while Lantus and NPH keep losing share, just like they have for the last 2-3 years. And, in case you're wondering, investors like POSITIVE GROWTH. So, Levemir could be worse--it could be Apidra.
How could you be doing worse than Levemir? Hmmmm--Levemir will make $500 million this year in the US. Plus, Levemir's share is growing while Lantus and NPH keep losing share, just like they have for the last 2-3 years. And, in case you're wondering, investors like POSITIVE GROWTH. So, Levemir could be worse--it could be Apidra.
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How could you be doing worse than Levemir? Hmmmm--Levemir will make $500 million this year in the US. Plus, Levemir's share is growing while Lantus and NPH keep losing share, just like they have for the last 2-3 years. And, in case you're wondering, investors like POSITIVE GROWTH. So, Levemir could be worse--it could be Apidra.
Lilly boy here - Ouch... thats a good one. I must admit. LOL
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Lilly boy here - Ouch... thats a good one. I must admit. LOL
Agree, Novo has spent a fortune trying to make Levemir look good, or tolerable, that is. Everyone knows Levemir sucks including Novo. Now why would you replace a total failure by another ? The answer is that Novo R&D management has no other choice. Over the years, they have very comprensively fucked up R&D management and direction. Therefore, there is no other option than to praise the devil. Eat what is available, insist that your failure is a success. Random walk is what it's called. Now, in order to save R&D management jobs, degludec is heavily promoted as another Novo success. Time will show that nobody believe Novo management.
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Agree, Novo has spent a fortune trying to make Levemir look good, or tolerable, that is. Everyone knows Levemir sucks including Novo. Now why would you replace a total failure by another ? The answer is that Novo R&D management has no other choice. Over the years, they have very comprensively fucked up R&D management and direction. Therefore, there is no other option than to praise the devil. Eat what is available, insist that your failure is a success. Random walk is what it's called. Now, in order to save R&D management jobs, degludec is heavily promoted as another Novo success. Time will show that nobody believe Novo management.
I don't think it is in NN's plan to try and take on glargine mano a mano with degludec, glargine has proved impressively resilient to attack over several years by sticking to a a very simple once-daily message and improving their devices gradually to the point where they are no longer an embarrassment. Plus there is always the chance of a biosimilar glargine turning up at a much lower price at some point.
Where degludec will come into its own will be in a combination with GLP-1 (both seperately and eventually in the same pen device at a fixed dose) and above all with aspart where NN will be the first company to launch a 100% analogue mix to the market (I know NovoMix is 100% analogue but 70% of the dose has a profile identical to NPH). This would reduce the number of glargine starts and would encourage more upgrades. At the moment all over the world Pts stay on o.d. basals for far too long as patients do not want to upgrade due to dislike of xtra injs and BGM and above all fear of hypos.
Glargine would then have a slow death of 1000 cuts by continuing to lose starts, some direct switches and above all more upgrades to mixes which would hopefully then rally as a segment in the insulin market. This might take a bit longer but is more acheivable IMHO. I just hope that degludec is launched at a very small premium price as whatever advantages it has don't justify a large price premium on current evidence.
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I don't think it is in NN's plan to try and take on glargine mano a mano with degludec, glargine has proved impressively resilient to attack over several years by sticking to a a very simple once-daily message and improving their devices gradually to the point where they are no longer an embarrassment. Plus there is always the chance of a biosimilar glargine turning up at a much lower price at some point.
Where degludec will come into its own will be in a combination with GLP-1 (both seperately and eventually in the same pen device at a fixed dose) and above all with aspart where NN will be the first company to launch a 100% analogue mix to the market (I know NovoMix is 100% analogue but 70% of the dose has a profile identical to NPH). This would reduce the number of glargine starts and would encourage more upgrades. At the moment all over the world Pts stay on o.d. basals for far too long as patients do not want to upgrade due to dislike of xtra injs and BGM and above all fear of hypos.
Glargine would then have a slow death of 1000 cuts by continuing to lose starts, some direct switches and above all more upgrades to mixes which would hopefully then rally as a segment in the insulin market. This might take a bit longer but is more acheivable IMHO. I just hope that degludec is launched at a very small premium price as whatever advantages it has don't justify a large price premium on current evidence.
You're probably right that Novo expects the best value of degludec to be within GLP-1 (Victoza ?) mixtures as well as the Aspart combination, which would indeed be the third "new" analog mix after Novomix and the Lilly equivalence.
These considerations do not change the fact that the degludec dosing regimen is poorly defined, incompletely understood and, most of all, not needed for anything besides creating confusion among patients and doctors. Forget degludec.
Unfortunalely, Novo got it seriously wrong with Levemir. Lack of potency, unpreictable action in different T2D patients, etc, and injection site reactions due to induction of amyloids by Levemir. Yet it was sold as "predictable" and "weight neutral".
Novo lost much credibility on Levemir. It seems like Novo is prepared to lose even bigger on degludec. Let's face it. Degludec is not needed. We already have Lantus/Glargine. Get your act together and save the patients for another hopeless example of how you "change diabetes". Nove does nothing but "charging" diabetics. Please save us for your corporate bullshit.
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You're probably right that Novo expects the best value of degludec to be within GLP-1 (Victoza ?) mixtures as well as the Aspart combination, which would indeed be the third "new" analog mix after Novomix and the Lilly equivalence.
These considerations do not change the fact that the degludec dosing regimen is poorly defined, incompletely understood and, most of all, not needed for anything besides creating confusion among patients and doctors. Forget degludec.
Unfortunalely, Novo got it seriously wrong with Levemir. Lack of potency, unpreictable action in different T2D patients, etc, and injection site reactions due to induction of amyloids by Levemir. Yet it was sold as "predictable" and "weight neutral".
Novo lost much credibility on Levemir. It seems like Novo is prepared to lose even bigger on degludec. Let's face it. Degludec is not needed. We already have Lantus/Glargine. Get your act together and save the patients for another hopeless example of how you "change diabetes". Nove does nothing but "charging" diabetics. Please save us for your corporate bullshit.
Lilly boy here.... I will disagree on this. I reviewed some recent data and if this accurate, Degludec will in the long run base on the current market landscape be a good option with it being mixed with a glp-1 which is being done with Byetta and Lantus now already. Well, let me correct this, they are being taken together. Also, the report i read states it lowers hypo's by 8-10%. That is pretty good. if true and it is truly a once a day and even longer injection, then depending on how good the once weekly GLP-1 that are hitting market work, this could be a great option.
The biggest challenge Novo and Lilly and Sante fee do not see happening is the explosion of Insulin pumps and patches that are about to hit. Not the current wireless option, but the new ones that organizations are working on. Now that the FDA is approving pumps for type 2's and with dpp4's and byetta victoza, and once weeklys hitting, and Lantus still dominating, this drug will have many major challenges to to become a block buster. As will other entrants. Diabetes landscape is becoming cluttered with drug after drug, and now more and more pumps, more and more insulins, etc.
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Lilly boy here.... I will disagree on this. I reviewed some recent data and if this accurate, Degludec will in the long run base on the current market landscape be a good option with it being mixed with a glp-1 which is being done with Byetta and Lantus now already. Well, let me correct this, they are being taken together. Also, the report i read states it lowers hypo's by 8-10%. That is pretty good. if true and it is truly a once a day and even longer injection, then depending on how good the once weekly GLP-1 that are hitting market work, this could be a great option.
The biggest challenge Novo and Lilly and Sante fee do not see happening is the explosion of Insulin pumps and patches that are about to hit. Not the current wireless option, but the new ones that organizations are working on. Now that the FDA is approving pumps for type 2's and with dpp4's and byetta victoza, and once weeklys hitting, and Lantus still dominating, this drug will have many major challenges to to become a block buster. As will other entrants. Diabetes landscape is becoming cluttered with drug after drug, and now more and more pumps, more and more insulins, etc.
I agree with the comments abouts insulin pumps etc. Regarding the 8-10% lowering of hypo's take a look at the injection regimens that were used to create these differences. These injection intervals would never ever occur in practise. Under realistic circumstances, i.e. once daily injections about 22-26 hours apart, and with 1-2 injections per week being outside this interval, degludec and Lantus/Glargine will show zero difference re hypo frequency. Novo knows that, therefore they had to construct extreme (unrealistic) trials to save degludec.
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I agree with the comments abouts insulin pumps etc. Regarding the 8-10% lowering of hypo's take a look at the injection regimens that were used to create these differences. These injection intervals would never ever occur in practise. Under realistic circumstances, i.e. once daily injections about 22-26 hours apart, and with 1-2 injections per week being outside this interval, degludec and Lantus/Glargine will show zero difference re hypo frequency. Novo knows that, therefore they had to construct extreme (unrealistic) trials to save degludec.
No one on here knows anything at all about how degludec will be promoted or dosed, so you can save your comments about "unrealistic" trials and such. It's hilarious that you dimwits come on here and discuss the success/failure of treatment options that you know maybe 5% about. You think you look smart and educated, but you come across as complete and total morons. Thanks for giving me (another) reason to laugh at you.
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No one on here knows anything at all about how degludec will be promoted or dosed, so you can save your comments about "unrealistic" trials and such. It's hilarious that you dimwits come on here and discuss the success/failure of treatment options that you know maybe 5% about. You think you look smart and educated, but you come across as complete and total morons. Thanks for giving me (another) reason to laugh at you.
Good for you that you can laugh through your obvious anger. I am sorry to have to say that the published information about degludec superiority makes no sense whatsoever. Novo obviously has constructed their trials to show some advantage re hypo frequency. Unfortunately, everyone can see that these regimens have no relevance to any diabetic patient. Like it or not, your product is screwed simply because it has no relevant advantage to offer. Don't waste your time, the patient's well-being or society's money by trying to cook up some silly spin around this.
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Good for you that you can laugh through your obvious anger. I am sorry to have to say that the published information about degludec superiority makes no sense whatsoever. Novo obviously has constructed their trials to show some advantage re hypo frequency. Unfortunately, everyone can see that these regimens have no relevance to any diabetic patient. Like it or not, your product is screwed simply because it has no relevant advantage to offer. Don't waste your time, the patient's well-being or society's money by trying to cook up some silly spin around this.
I'm not angry, just amused that bitches like you act like you know what you're talking about. You, the Anonymous Cafe Pharma poster, have single-handedly figured out that Novo's entire clinical trial program surrounding a future insulin is completely worthless. Man, isn't the world lucky to have you around? You're hilarious for one reason--you're convinced that you are smart. That's the funny part!! Thanks for your predictably asinine response to my previous post. A man can never laugh too much!
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I'm not angry, just amused that bitches like you act like you know what you're talking about. You, the Anonymous Cafe Pharma poster, have single-handedly figured out that Novo's entire clinical trial program surrounding a future insulin is completely worthless. Man, isn't the world lucky to have you around? You're hilarious for one reason--you're convinced that you are smart. That's the funny part!! Thanks for your predictably asinine response to my previous post. A man can never laugh too much!
It is hard to believe that a clinical development program surrounding degludec could be close to useless. However, once you realize it was created by the same management team that designed the clinical program for Levemir, then perhaps it is not so surprising.
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I'm not angry, just amused that bitches like you act like you know what you're talking about. You, the Anonymous Cafe Pharma poster, have single-handedly figured out that Novo's entire clinical trial program surrounding a future insulin is completely worthless. Man, isn't the world lucky to have you around? You're hilarious for one reason--you're convinced that you are smart. That's the funny part!! Thanks for your predictably asinine response to my previous post. A man can never laugh too much!
Just leave him alone with his opinion. If he can't see the obvious advantage of Degludec he is either stupid or pretending to be.
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It is hard to believe that a clinical development program surrounding degludec could be close to useless. However, once you realize it was created by the same management team that designed the clinical program for Levemir, then perhaps it is not so surprising.
Unlike Lilly and Amylin, Novo Nordisk learns from it's mistakes.
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Unlike Lilly and Amylin, Novo Nordisk learns from it's mistakes.
Novo indeed has plenty of mistakes to learn from. Adventures in CNS and small molecule anti-diabetics. All fucked up. New indications for FVII and fast-track entry into cancer. Also screwed. With Levemir Novo managed to fuck up a home run and created the only insulin without significant potency. A true novelty. Now degludec is being positioned as a miracle molecule. The only problem is that it resolves an issue that is not there and never was. It helps reducing hypos in the 0.01 % fraction of patients that take their injections at random intervals. Who cares ?
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Just leave him alone with his opinion. If he can't see the obvious advantage of Degludec he is either stupid or pretending to be.
Folks...without rambling on too much here (because that really is Lilly Boy's forte, and I
wouldn't like to ruin that for him), consider this:
Remember how this fellow came here little more than a year ago, bashing Victoza to absolutely no end? That once-a-week Bye-byetta would be the next best thing since sliced bread?
Remember?
Remember how WRONG he was and still is about that?
Then why on EARTH are you all egging him on yet again while he tries to bash another
Novo product not yet released?
Just leave the guy alone...let him drone on and type his long-winded diatribes about how much he hates us. He obviously likes to feel he 'gets our goat'. He obviously is bored to tears with his oncology gig. He constantly brings up he's 'too good' to take Novo's previous
offer to him, so he feels like the Lone Ranger here.
Bottom line....if we all (me included) just let him type away his life in a frenzy, LET HIM.
But let's not bother to answer any of his 'gotcha' responses or queries. Let's let our selling do the talking....seriously.
and really, Lilly Boy....you don't see us trashing your products on your companies' thread.
Why do you so voraciously feel compelled to do the same here? Let it go, for Pete's sake...
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Folks...without rambling on too much here (because that really is Lilly Boy's forte, and I
wouldn't like to ruin that for him), consider this:
Remember how this fellow came here little more than a year ago, bashing Victoza to absolutely no end? That once-a-week Bye-byetta would be the next best thing since sliced bread?
Remember?
Remember how WRONG he was and still is about that?
Then why on EARTH are you all egging him on yet again while he tries to bash another
Novo product not yet released?
Just leave the guy alone...let him drone on and type his long-winded diatribes about how much he hates us. He obviously likes to feel he 'gets our goat'. He obviously is bored to tears with his oncology gig. He constantly brings up he's 'too good' to take Novo's previous
offer to him, so he feels like the Lone Ranger here.
Bottom line....if we all (me included) just let him type away his life in a frenzy, LET HIM.
But let's not bother to answer any of his 'gotcha' responses or queries. Let's let our selling do the talking....seriously.
and really, Lilly Boy....you don't see us trashing your products on your companies' thread.
Why do you so voraciously feel compelled to do the same here? Let it go, for Pete's sake...
Hold on... where am i trashing your drug. Idiot, I gave your drug props. Plus this is not your company thread. It is a public thread. You can post whatever you would like on my company's thread, my skin is thicker than to get bothers by a post.
Maybe you dont do your research, I have been away. I came back with the year review regarding Victoza. You must be doing pretty bad, and feel frusterated.
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Hold on... where am i trashing your drug. Idiot, I gave your drug props. Plus this is not your company thread. It is a public thread. You can post whatever you would like on my company's thread, my skin is thicker than to get bothers by a post.
Maybe you dont do your research, I have been away. I came back with the year review regarding Victoza. You must be doing pretty bad, and feel frusterated.
Lilly boy is right. Degludec sucks, in particular the clinical development program is ridiculous, nobody is asking for the product Novo is developing. Victoza made it to the market, the poor patients must now submit their bodies to deliver data on increased incidence of pancreatitis and C-cell tumors. Meanwhile, Novo continues to brag about their shit drugs.
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Lilly boy is right. Degludec sucks, in particular the clinical development program is ridiculous, nobody is asking for the product Novo is developing. Victoza made it to the market, the poor patients must now submit their bodies to deliver data on increased incidence of pancreatitis and C-cell tumors. Meanwhile, Novo continues to brag about their shit drugs.
Sorry you got passed over in our last expansion. Perhaps if you weren't an idiot, you would have gotten the job. But, go ahead and pretend that Novo is terrible and we have terrible products--we'll keep enjoying our double-digit growth and you can keep posting hate mail on Cafe Pharma!
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Hold on... where am i trashing your drug. Idiot, I gave your drug props. Plus this is not your company thread. It is a public thread. You can post whatever you would like on my company's thread, my skin is thicker than to get bothers by a post.
Maybe you dont do your research, I have been away. I came back with the year review regarding Victoza. You must be doing pretty bad, and feel frusterated.
...lilly boy....we know you weren't trashing victoza.
You were - and still are - trashing degludec.
Why even trash something that isn't even here yet?
I'm not the 'frusterated' one here...we all know you are.
Geez - don't you have anything better to do with your time?
Guess not...
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[ ....................and improving their (glargine) devices gradually to the point where they are no longer an embarrassment[/QUOTE]
100/10 for damning with faint praise.
Had Levemir been launched first in a Flexpen I doubt glargine would have made much impact with the devices S-A had at launch.
Vials now account for less than 1/3 of world sales, and competitive advantage in devices is more important than ever.
100/10 for damning with faint praise.
Had Levemir been launched first in a Flexpen I doubt glargine would have made much impact with the devices S-A had at launch.
Vials now account for less than 1/3 of world sales, and competitive advantage in devices is more important than ever.